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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 09:11am
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Keys on when to rotate as lead

I have heard many different keys on when to rotate as lead. I was just curious to get input from others on what they have heard. Here are the ones I can remember.

1) "When the ball and more than 1 matchup is on the C's side, go"

2) "When the ball and a post player are on the C's side, go"

3) "When the ball penetrates past the foul line extended on the C's side." (I've heard this one a lot and it's way too late in my opinion)

and my favorite (and the one I use because of it's simplicity),

4) "go when the center needs your help."

What are some other keys that you have heard or that you use?
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 09:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
I have heard many different keys on when to rotate as lead. I was just curious to get input from others on what they have heard. Here are the ones I can remember.

1) "When the ball and more than 1 matchup is on the C's side, go"

2) "When the ball and a post player are on the C's side, go"

3) "When the ball penetrates past the foul line extended on the C's side." (I've heard this one a lot and it's way too late in my opinion)

and my favorite (and the one I use because of it's simplicity),

4) "go when the center needs your help."

What are some other keys that you have heard or that you use?

I will go with #1, you want to rotate before the pass gets in the post so you can see if there is a foul on the offense or defense. If you rotate to late you may miss a push or a hook. In the first couple of the minutes of the game you need to look and see what kind of offense each team is running and you then can gauge when the best time to rotate is.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 09:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
I have heard many different keys on when to rotate as lead. I was just curious to get input from others on what they have heard. Here are the ones I can remember.

1) "When the ball and more than 1 matchup is on the C's side, go"

2) "When the ball and a post player are on the C's side, go"

3) "When the ball penetrates past the foul line extended on the C's side." (I've heard this one a lot and it's way too late in my opinion)

and my favorite (and the one I use because of it's simplicity),

4) "go when the center needs your help."

What are some other keys that you have heard or that you use?
A variation on your #4 that I use in pregames: Referee thru the eyes of your partners...if you were C and would want the L to come across to help, then get over there and help.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 11:16am
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it's a regional thing

For HS ball I go with 1, 2, & 4 for the most part.

When working JuCo I solicit the Crew Chief to see if we will be working under the "accelerated Lead" philosophy which means Lead rotates as soon as ball crosses half-court.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
I have heard many different keys on when to rotate as lead. I was just curious to get input from others on what they have heard. Here are the ones I can remember.

1) "When the ball and more than 1 matchup is on the C's side, go"

2) "When the ball and a post player are on the C's side, go"

3) "When the ball penetrates past the foul line extended on the C's side." (I've heard this one a lot and it's way too late in my opinion)

and my favorite (and the one I use because of it's simplicity),

4) "go when the center needs your help."

What are some other keys that you have heard or that you use?
The only one I like is #3, and even then in your opinion you think that is too slow. I am still a fairly young official, but I have grown up in a system and been to some great camps ran by top officials and this is exactly when you want to rotate. I personally feel the other 3 are too late as do the other officials that have taught me. They want strong side officiating, iow they want 2 officials on the same side of the ball as much as possible. There is going to be 10x more activity near the ball than there will be far away from the ball. I am a very active lead and I have heard and employ being an accelerated lead, but I have yet to hear it as being a philosophy. I think of it as something you do to get to the opposite side faster.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
The only one I like is #3, and even then in your opinion you think that is too slow. I am still a fairly young official, but I have grown up in a system and been to some great camps ran by top officials and this is exactly when you want to rotate. They want strong side officiating, iow they want 2 officials on the same side of the ball as much as possible.
You're misunderstanding #3. You're thinking that it means the LANE LINE extended (up toward midcourt) on the C's side.

But Z means the FREE THROW LINE extended (out toward the sideline) on the C's side.

Your mechanics are very much in line with the NBA's rotations; while #3 in Z's list is the "old" way of rotating in NCAA men's and NFHS mechanics. Many people are getting away from #3, even in the men's college ranks.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 01:06pm
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I don't get the chance to work 3-man but in camps I've been too, one of the suggestions was:

Look there, go there.

Meaning....if there is a reason to look (not glance but focus) across the paint (matchup, ball, etc.) go.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 07:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
I don't get the chance to work 3-man but in camps I've been too, one of the suggestions was:

Look there, go there.

Meaning....if there is a reason to look (not glance but focus) across the paint (matchup, ball, etc.) go.
Sorry I don't usually get into the multiple posts but this seems like a real fun topic. This philosophy again is too slow as you have been beaten by the play. You want to be rotated in time to receive the oncoming screen, post play, or whatever maybe coming your way from the opposite lane line. I have been taught that once the ball gets passed the LANE LINE (sorry about the misunderstanding earlier) then you rotate regardless of how many people are still on the other side you just rotated from, cause inevitably unless this is a one on one clear out play there will be kids coming to the ball. They (upper echelon of college and pro officials) want you to have to look back over your shoulder and let the players come to you. I have the mindset of being a little more selective in plays going away from me as percentages have shown that calling plays that are going away from you have a smaller chance of being called correctly. That is my reasoning for "beating the play". Another way to think of it as well is comparing the rotation to the fast break. Would you ideally want to be in front of the players and beat them down the floor or would you rather trail the play? Just food for thought. I love provoking good debate in the heads of good officials or those looking to always improve, which I hope is everyone. Have a good weekend.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 07:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron
if there is a reason to look (not glance but focus) across the paint (matchup, ball, etc.) go.
This philosophy again is too slow as you have been beaten by the play. You want to be rotated in time to receive the oncoming screen, post play, or whatever maybe coming your way from the opposite lane line.
I understand where you're coming from; I've been to a few of those camps, too. But how can Camron's guideline be too slow? You're going to rotate before you focus on a matchup or the ball?
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 08:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
I understand where you're coming from; I've been to a few of those camps, too. But how can Camron's guideline be too slow? You're going to rotate before you focus on a matchup or the ball?
I just assume if he is focused on something across the lane than something has happened or is happening before he gets there and gets a look. As we all know we want to see the play from the beginning and if we don't that is our fault and possibly another player's misfortune as we might have missed an earlier elbow or something of that nature. All in all I think the key to rotating is for the purpose of having the best coverage possible, and at this day and this time the testimonies seem to be that to get the best coverage possible is through having two officials on the same side of the ball as quick as possible, and as soon as possible, as well as beating any oncoming plays coming from the weakside to the strongside.
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Old Fri Oct 20, 2006, 11:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
Sorry I don't usually get into the multiple posts but this seems like a real fun topic. This philosophy again is too slow as you have been beaten by the play. You want to be rotated in time to receive the oncoming screen, post play, or whatever maybe coming your way from the opposite lane line. I have been taught that once the ball gets passed the LANE LINE (sorry about the misunderstanding earlier) then you rotate regardless of how many people are still on the other side you just rotated from, cause inevitably unless this is a one on one clear out play there will be kids coming to the ball. They (upper echelon of college and pro officials) want you to have to look back over your shoulder and let the players come to you. I have the mindset of being a little more selective in plays going away from me as percentages have shown that calling plays that are going away from you have a smaller chance of being called correctly. That is my reasoning for "beating the play". Another way to think of it as well is comparing the rotation to the fast break. Would you ideally want to be in front of the players and beat them down the floor or would you rather trail the play? Just food for thought. I love provoking good debate in the heads of good officials or those looking to always improve, which I hope is everyone. Have a good weekend.
I think you just summarized in 400 words what I said in 4.

I still stand by "Look there, go there". Why make a simple thing so complicated (unless you work for the goverment)?

Of course you don't want to wait until a drive is at the blocks or a foul about to happen....but until there is something you see that suggests you should take a look and head across, why would you cross. You will not be looking across if there are no plays or matches in progress or forming. Once the ball get's below the FT line, you'll look there...so go there. If the posts are across the lane with no one on your side, you'll look there, so go there.
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Old Sat Oct 21, 2006, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
I just assume if he is focused on something across the lane than something has happened or is happening before he gets there and gets a look. As we all know we want to see the play from the beginning and if we don't that is our fault and possibly another player's misfortune as we might have missed an earlier elbow or something of that nature. All in all I think the key to rotating is for the purpose of having the best coverage possible, and at this day and this time the testimonies seem to be that to get the best coverage possible is through having two officials on the same side of the ball as quick as possible, and as soon as possible, as well as beating any oncoming plays coming from the weakside to the strongside.
I understand the point you are trying to get across but the "accelerated lead" is not accepted practice in my High School association nor in 2 local D-III conferences here in Virginia.

This is something that most definitely has to be pre-gamed before being incorporated.

Also, even when working an accelerated lead I'm not going to rotate in Situation #3. By that time it's too late b/c any call you make will most likely mean you are calling it while on the move, a "no-no" according to the folks from whom I seek counsel.
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Last edited by Raymond; Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 03:41pm.
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Old Sat Oct 21, 2006, 07:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
I think you just summarized in 400 words what I said in 4.

I still stand by "Look there, go there". Why make a simple thing so complicated (unless you work for the goverment)?

Of course you don't want to wait until a drive is at the blocks or a foul about to happen....but until there is something you see that suggests you should take a look and head across, why would you cross. You will not be looking across if there are no plays or matches in progress or forming. Once the ball get's below the FT line, you'll look there...so go there. If the posts are across the lane with no one on your side, you'll look there, so go there.
Let me say this and try not to get into too long of a post. If the point guard has went to the opposite side of me (lead) and he is past the lane line opposite of me and all the rest of the players are on the side I am currently at I am still going to rotate and look back over my shoulder, so I am not looking over there but I am still going there. I tried as few words as possible.
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Old Sun Oct 22, 2006, 12:40pm
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I'm with Cameron. The thing I think of most is if you have to look across the lane, get your [email protected]# over there. I think that little bit of advice takes care of most rotations. Another thing I do is I pay a lot of attention to how team run their offenses early and if I hear them shout out any changes. The better you understand where they are trying to go, the more chance you have of being in the right place.
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