C.E. Situation ??

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Except that 2-10-5 says that you cancel the free throw and the activity during it. My question is, if the free throw and the activitiy during it is canceled, why is the possession not canceled?

The possession isn't cancelled because the possession was not part of any activity during the wrong FT(s). The possession was after the last wrong FT had ended.

[Raymond]

Kajun, I think the distinction is any activity during the FT; meaning that once possession is established then the FT has ended.

Not saying I agree with the correctable error rule or its interpretations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Kajun, I think the distinction is any activity during the FT; meaning that once possession is established then the FT has ended.

Not really. The FT ends when the try is either successful or unsuccessful, or the try touches the floor or a player, or the ball becomes dead. Possession, either player/team, does not necessarily occur automatically when the FT ends. You could have a loose ball or a dead ball also. If you recognize the error before a change in possession occurs after the last wrong FT ended, then you just line 'em up and re-shoot the FT's with the correct shooter on the line.

The common criteria is that all of these activities occur after the last wrong FT ended, and that any activity that occurs after the last wrong FT ended is not cancelled, by rule.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not really. The FT ends when the try is either successful or unsuccessful, or the try touches the floor or a player, or the ball becomes dead. Possession, either player/team, does not necessarily occur automatically when the FT ends. You could have a loose ball or a dead ball also. If you recognize the error before a change in possession occurs after the last wrong FT ended, then you just line 'em up and re-shoot the FT's with the correct shooter on the line.

The common criteria is that all of these activities occur after the last wrong FT ended, and that any activity that occurs after the last wrong FT ended is not cancelled, by rule.

Ok, maybe I should have said:

...I think the distinction is any activity during the FT; meaning that by the time possession is established then the FT has ended.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Ok, maybe I should have said:

...I think the distinction is any activity during the FT; meaning that by the time possession is established then the FT has ended.

I think that easier distinctions are:

1) Did the last wrong FT end? If so, everything that occurred before that is cancelled, but nothing that occurred after that is cancelled.
2) Did possession change after the last wrong FT ended? If so, you go to the POI after you shoot the substitute FT's. If not, you line up and shoot the substitute FT's.

A possession change would be a member of the non-shooting team either holding or dribbling a live ball in-bounds after the last wrong FT ended.

Make sense?

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I think that easier distinctions are:

1) Did the last wrong FT end? If so, everything that occurred before that is cancelled, but nothing that occurred after that is cancelled.
2) Did possession change after the last wrong FT ended? If so, you go to the POI after you shoot the substitute FT's. If not, you line up and shoot the substitute FT's.

A possession change would be a member of the non-shooting team either holding or dribbling a live ball in-bounds after the last wrong FT ended.

Make sense?

You almost got it...here is my change.

"1) Did the last wrong FT end? If so, everything that occurred before that is cancelled (EXCEPT the POSSESSION by the THROWER), but nothing that occurred after that is cancelled."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

You almost got it...here is my change.

"1) Did the last wrong FT end? If so, everything that occurred before that is cancelled (EXCEPT the POSSESSION by the THROWER), but nothing that occurred after that is cancelled."

Lah me....

If you didn't cancel the possession by the thrower before the wrong FT ended, then you would also have to count the FT's that were made during that possession by the wrong thrower.

Just for the record.....

I'm citing the way it actually is, by rule. If you want to change something, then you're trying to change the rule.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I think that easier distinctions are:

1) Did the last wrong FT end? If so, everything that occurred before that is cancelled, but nothing that occurred after that is cancelled.
2) Did possession change after the last wrong FT ended? If so, you go to the POI after you shoot the substitute FT's. If not, you line up and shoot the substitute FT's.

A possession change would be a member of the non-shooting team either holding or dribbling a live ball in-bounds after the last wrong FT ended.

Make sense?

It probably will once I get into rulebook a little more this weekend.

I just got my NFHS rule and case books this week (no manual yet), so I am just starting to read.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The possession isn't cancelled because the possession was not part of any activity during the wrong FT(s). The possession was after the last wrong FT had ended.

Well, in order to have change in possession, you must have two possessions. There is possession by one team when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower, and possession by one team upon the rebound.

However, we are arguing semantics, which is dangerous with a Kajun. You were correct in that the possession by the throwing team is not canceled and therefore there is change in possession and therefore POI.