Case play 7.1.1 is not correct

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

You also have to determine whether the player saved it from going out of bounds with a "controlled" save or a "batted" save. A controlled save is used in college to determine a reset of the shot clock in some instances and would also be used to determine if it would constitute a dribble. A batted save would not reset the shot clock and would not be considered a dribble, but for the most part we are not going to microdot and not let the player dribble on a save. If JTRICE ever gives the answer this could turn into a good discussion. Let's please stay on topic though and not get off on some tangent about making fun of someone. That seems to be happening alot or at least since I have started posting. Not meaning to be negative.

OK....on topic....

Did you read the case play? It stated "A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back...". If the player caught the ball and then threw it back, the player (1) established player control with the catch, and (2) started a dribble with the toss. Rules 4-12-1 and 4-15-1. Iow, the case play already told us that it was a controlled save.


And....off topic... please don't tell anyone here how or what to post. That's up to the moderators', not you or anyone else-including me. Also not meaning to be negative.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

To support M&M,

Here is the interrupted dribble rule:

4-15-5 "An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble."

It appears to me, the Fed is considering Case 7.1.1D to be an interrupted dribble which makes the case book correct as written. The ball has momentarily gotten away from the dribbler. If not, he would still be holding the ball when he goes OB.

KajunRef and the M'er got it right. The toss to save the ball is the start of an interrupted dribble. That's where you got confused imo, John.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JTRICE

I had a very interesting conversation at my basketball meeting last night. It turns out that case play 7.1.1 part (a) and (b) are not correct as written. Part (c) IS correct. It reads as follows:

A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court. A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning inbounds: (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball ...RULING: Legal in (a) and (b).

Think about this and see if you can figure out why this is NOT right.

You're going to have an even more interesting conversation next time when you tell your other officials that you were all incorrect in thinking that the case play was incorrect.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JTRICE

First off...... I want to sincerely and emphatically apologize if I offended any official in any way with this question. This is NOT what I meant to do. I (thought) I was offering a situation to ponder to help us all with our officiating (and our test scores.)

Situation 7.1.1 Situation D part C....... states in its answer: "Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes the start of a dribble....." Part C then goes on to explain (as we all know) how A1 cannot start another dribble.

The important part of this is that the case book says " ...the controlled toss of the ball...".

So.... this is NOT an interrupted dribble.

Finally, as we know, also, and it is stated on Page 56 of the Rule Book...Section 3 Article 2 NOTE: "The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds."

For what it is worth...... (and I admit it may not be worth much ) the Rules Committee has been notified of this information and I would bet we will see that case changed in next year's book.

Sorry John but you and your group are wrong. It is an interrupted dribble.

You emphasized " ...the controlled toss of the ball...". Every start of every dribble is a controlled toss or bat of the ball. If it was uncontrolled, it would be a fumble. And we know that a fumble is not a dribble and a dribble is not a fumble.

The dribble begins with control. Once there is no longer player control, then the dribble is interrupted.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Sorry John but you and your group are wrong. It is an interrupted dribble.

You emphasized " ...the controlled toss of the ball...". Every start of every dribble is a controlled toss or bat of the ball. If it was uncontrolled, it would be a fumble. And we know that a fumble is not a dribble and a dribble is not a fumble.

The dribble gegins with control. Once there is no longer player control, then the dribble is interrupted.

And...

If it were not a interrupted dribble, it would be a violation the instant the player touched OOB, not when he returned and touched the ball.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And...

If it were not a interrupted dribble, it would be a violation the instant the player touched OOB, not when he returned and touched the ball.

Correct.

PS - I hate that damn, "Your message is too short," dialog box. Would somebody PLEASE get rid of it!!!!!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Correct.

PS - I hate that damn, "Your message is too short," dialog box. Would somebody PLEASE get rid of it!!!!!

Why?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OK....on topic....

Did you read the case play? It stated "A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back...". If the player caught the ball and then threw it back, the player (1) established player control with the catch, and (2) started a dribble with the toss. Rules 4-12-1 and 4-15-1. Iow, the case play already told us that it was a controlled save.


And....off topic... please don't tell anyone here how or what to post. That's up to the moderators', not you or anyone else-including me. Also not meaning to be negative.

Jurassic I never told anyone how nor what to post. I just politefully asked that we stay on the topic of basketball without putting up cute pictures and talking about eating popcorn, correcting grammar, and other cute anecdotes that seem to make it into the threads, when indeed the topic is basketball officiating. Threads could be alot shorter and people's amounts of posts would be a ton less. I don't mean to start a fight, just felt like I should let it be known, although by the amount of post I have it doesn't give me that much credibility or believeability to the rest of the big timers on the forum.

I did read the post and I was just throwing in my two cents about how we, as officials, need to recognize the difference between the two saves. I know it was off topic a little bit from the main thread point, but it was still within the realm of basketball officiating.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I just politefully asked that we stay on the topic of basketball without putting up cute pictures and talking about eating popcorn, correcting grammar, and other cute anecdotes that seem to make it into the threads, when indeed the topic is basketball officiating.

Fine.

The answer to your question above then is "No, everybody will continue to post what they want...and the moderators will sort 'em out".

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

please don't tell anyone here how or what to post. That's up to the moderators', not you or anyone else-including me.

Then why are you telling him what he shouldn't post?

Originally Posted by btaylor

I just politefully asked that we stay on the topic of basketball without . . . correcting grammar . . .when indeed the topic is basketball officiating.

Trying . . . to . . . resist. . . Politeful. . . poli. . . p . . . p . . . room spinning. . . can't breathe. . .

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Then why are you telling him what he shouldn't post?

Shut up.

[Jimgolf]

Why would this necessarilly be considered an interrupted dribble? The case doesn't say how long the player is out of bounds before returning and continuing the dribble.

Conceivably, this could be the same dribble - player saves the ball, steps out, comes back in and dribbles before the ball bounces a second time - the ball has never been out of the player's control. If you would you still contend that this is an interrupted dribble, what is the basis for that?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Why would this necessarilly be considered an interrupted dribble? The case doesn't say how long the player is out of bounds before returning and continuing the dribble.

Conceivably, this could be the same dribble - player saves the ball, steps out, comes back in and dribbles before the ball bounces a second time - the ball has never been out of the player's control. If you would you still contend that this is an interrupted dribble, what is the basis for that?

If it's not an interrupted dribble, and the player had full control the whole time, then it's a violation the moment they touch OBB, as per Cameron's and BktBallRef's post. (It's the rule where if the player is OOB, while dribbling, it is a violation even though they may not be touching the ball at that moment.) So, if you go back to the original post and the question, that wasn't one of the answers to the question.

I imagine the play as follows: A1 and A2 in the backcourt, all the other players are in A's frontcourt. A1 passes to A2, who isn't looking and is running towards the frontcourt. A1 sees their pass about to go OOB, and saves it. Since all the other players aren't close, A1 comes back inbounds and retrieves the ball.

[Nu1]

M&M...I would say your play is an illegal dribble. The first thrown ball (pass to A2 that didn't touch anyone and was bouncing out of bounds) was actually a dribble.

1. If A1 dribbled first...ended the dribble...threw the ball towards A2...and then ran after the ball and grabbed it to save it from going out of bounds...it would be an illegal dribble as soon as A1 grabbed the ball.

2. If A1 never used the dribbled...threw the ball towards A2...then ran after the ball and saved it by throwing it in bounds...and returned inbounds and touched the ball again before anyone else...it would be an illegal dribble when A1 touched the ball upon returning.

I hope that makes sense. It sounds confusing while I type it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nu1

M&M...I would say your play is an illegal dribble. The first thrown ball (pass to A2 that didn't touch anyone and was bouncing out of bounds) was actually a dribble.

1. If A1 dribbled first...ended the dribble...threw the ball towards A2...and then ran after the ball and grabbed it to save it from going out of bounds...it would be an illegal dribble as soon as A1 grabbed the ball.

2. If A1 never used the dribbled...threw the ball towards A2...then ran after the ball and saved it by throwing it in bounds...and returned inbounds and touched the ball again before anyone else...it would be an illegal dribble when A1 touched the ball upon returning.

I hope that makes sense. It sounds confusing while I type it.

Um...er,...never mind. I believe you're right on both counts. But, I knew that; I was just testing to see if anyone was paying attention...

Actually, what I meant to say was A2 was the one to save it from going OOB. I was trying to point out that there really aren't too many opportunities for a player to save a ball while going OOB, and then being the first to come back and get it, without all the other players being close by; thus the backcourt example.

Writing out a play, and actually seeing it live, are two different animals. I gotta start leaving the writing to the professionals.