End of blowout antics

[lukealex]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

He tried to push him but completely missed him and made no contact?

Nothing. If he's that inept, he doesn't earn a T. Just tell him to knock it off.

She actually, A1 was frustrated and apparently wanted to take out her frustration on another player.

If it was deliberate, a warning then if actions persisted a T?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by lukealex

She actually, A1 was frustrated and apparently wanted to take out her frustration on another player.

If it was deliberate, a warning then if actions persisted a T?

Wait.

A1 runs at B1 & then pushes her?

And you want to warn A1?

That's an immediate flagrant.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Wait.

A1 runs at B1 & then pushes her?

And you want to warn A1?

That's an immediate flagrant.

Dan,
She was unsuccessful in making contact. For me to call the attempt unsporting, it would have to have been REALLY, REALLY bad and obvious what she was doing. I think I'd talk to her, a captain, or a coach to try to get her calmed down or on the bench.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Junker

Dan,
She was unsuccessful in making contact. For me to call the attempt unsporting, it would have to have been REALLY, REALLY bad and obvious what she was doing. I think I'd talk to her, a captain, or a coach to try to get her calmed down or on the bench.

Blow-out, out of control, losers headhunting despite whistles, A1 runs at B1 & attempts to push B1 but misses.

A1's getting tossed. We've already progressed to REALLY, REALLY bad and obvious. When A1 rushes B1 we're no longer refereeing a basketball game.

btw..take a good look at the fighting rule.

[Junker]

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor. This situation makes me think of the classic coaches line (I think it was Jimmy V) about "can you T me up for what I'm thinking, I think you suck". Tossing a player for this might be opening a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me in saying that I enforce sportsmanship as much as anyone, but I would be more prone to try to manage this situation without an ejection.

[Junker]

Dan,
Do you have a rules book handy to post the part about fighting you're referencing? I'm at work and have my football gear with me, but not my basketball stuff. I'd like to see where you're coming from.

[zeke]

IMO, send a message and toss him for flagrant tech foul. You could rule it a fight. Either way you can't allow the players to make a joke out of the game. If you pass on this there will proably some reaction to it. If there wasn't consider yourself lucky. Referee dead ball situations are essences to your job. Actions ignore or gone unaddress will only manifest into uncontrollable episodes.

[lukealex]

An ejection was discussed, but the T would have been my action. Although I didn't see the attempted push, my partner described it as deliberate, intentional, away from the ball (doesn't really matter), and not in any way a basketball motion.

Have to see it to really know what you would do, but that is my description of the play.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor.

errr...yes I'm very sure. Not that your question is relevant, but I would be far more concerned having to explain letting A1 off with a warning in this play. Trust me in saying any assignor that has an issue with an ejection in this sitch is probably not worth taking games from.

[euby]

Flagrant Foul 4-19-4

A flagrant foul may be personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as striking, kicking, and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar, or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

Fighting 4-18

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or alive. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1...An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of weather contact is made.
ART. 2...An attempt to instigate a fight by commiting an unsporting act toward an opponent that cause an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor. This situation makes me think of the classic coaches line (I think it was Jimmy V) about "can you T me up for what I'm thinking, I think you suck". Tossing a player for this might be opening a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me in saying that I enforce sportsmanship as much as anyone, but I would be more prone to try to manage this situation without an ejection.

The player demonstrated her intent for everybody to see. And I hate to say it, but if players are doing this in your game...you've got a wide open can of worms already.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The player demonstrated her intent for everybody to see. And I hate to say it, but if players are doing this in your game...you've got a wide open can of worms already.

I agree, but if the officials had to discuss how to handle it after the game, it doesn't sound as though it were that blatant. Luckily I haven't had any extreme ugliness like this in a game (I'm knocking on my desk with both hands). My point in discussing this is that I would be wary to throw a player out of a game for what I think they are trying to do. I'm an official, not a mind reader. If it is that obvious, yeah the player needs to go, but as with a lot of situations, you have to be there to see it. Thanks for posting the rule Euby, I did remember, somewhat, the non-contact part, but wanted to read it word for word.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor.

Selling intent to a coach is a non-issue. Worrying about selling anything to a coach aamof is a non-issue and something that an official should never, ever be concerned with. Worrying about what a coach thinks of a call should never be a part of officiating.

Assignors should be able to trust their official's judgement. I don't think that there's really any "sell" involved there either.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Junker

I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor. This situation makes me think of the classic coaches line (I think it was Jimmy V) about "can you T me up for what I'm thinking, I think you suck". Tossing a player for this might be opening a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me in saying that I enforce sportsmanship as much as anyone, but I would be more prone to try to manage this situation without an ejection.

Actually, the Jimmy V line was, "I think you stink."

[crazy voyager]

I'm warning you for blow-outs, I only have bad excperience from blow-outs.

I played two years ago in a cup. We won with 30 or 40 points. The other team had one player who consistently through out the game held, grabbed, pushed and acted unsportsmanlike in many manners. When he took one of our players at a rebound, and simply threw him out of the way. A minute later he was out of the game, he ran into a screen, the screener moved slightly, he fell over his hip into another players elbow (the elbow wasn't intentional though, not that it makes it less unsportsmanlike though).

THIS is what you get when you don't control the blow outs. We were fed up with this player, the officials didn't care, so we simply made life easier by taking him out of the game. I'm not proud of it, but as a player, I understand it. As a ref I think it was terrible by the officials not making sure to restrain this guy.

Control in blow-outs mean evrything no control=big trouble