Class 5A State Finals--Florida

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How did grade school come into this conversation?

When I asked if the pool of grade school and high school officials should be kept separate, you said yes. I was just trying to determine how far you were willing to segregate officials.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In our state you cannot work both Boy's and Girl's playoffs. You definitely cannot work Men's and Women's basketball at the same time.

That's not entirely true. I've worked both girls and boys regionals, in the same season. Now, it is true once you are picked to move further, you cannot work both because they are happening simultaneously. But I know of several officials that have worked state championship games in both boys and girls, in different seasons.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In many cases you cannot get assigned both boy's and girl's basketball without getting a lot of grief for it (might hurt in assignment with boy's games for sure).

Well, I can't help but say the following: I'm not sure how it is where you live, but where I live (sorry ) that's not entirely the case. Many of the schools in our area hire their own officials, and many officials work both girls and boys varsity. Some AD's of the smaller schools almost require doing both. There are, of course, some officials that only work boys varsity by their own choice. There are also some class AA leagues that use an assignor, but I have seen officials that work both sides of those leagues as well.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And let us not talk about college officiating and how that is even more split.

I'm well aware of that. At least in college, there are different rules, mechanics and philosophies between the games. I suppose the prevailing thought is that in order to be good, you should concentrate on one or the other. As an official moves up in college, men's or women's, they are also encouraged to give up high school games for this reason.

But, in HS, the rules and mechanics are the same; the only difference is the style of play. So, if you are a good official, shouldn't you be able to adjust to different styles of play? If you're only good enough to do the boys' style, and not the girls', maybe you're good enough to work the boys' game where they fast break and shoot 3's all night, but you're not good enough to adjust to the boy's game where they run set offenses all night, right? Is there any difference in how you interact with a boy's team's coach vs. a girl's team's coach? How specialized are you as an official? Or, are you just a good official? I'm not sure there are specific answers; each person might have different likes and dislikes - just something to think about.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, if you are a good official, shouldn't you be able to adjust to different styles of play?

Exactly, because even at any one level, every game is different in style, talent, speed, etc. etc. etc. Good officials adjust.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

When I asked if the pool of grade school and high school officials should be kept separate, you said yes. I was just trying to determine how far you were willing to segregate officials.

I never said to "segregate" anyone. I said that you will have a different group working one level and a different group working another. Usually the very new officials start out at the grade school level and the veterans spend most of their time working. Now where I started officiating, the only reason officials were able to work because the IESA started in the fall and much of the season was over before the HS season had even got its legs. Now where I live where there are almost no IESA games and the JH seasons run with the HS seasons, you cannot do all levels unless you want to stay married or not piss off your children.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That's not entirely true. I've worked both girls and boys regionals, in the same season. Now, it is true once you are picked to move further, you cannot work both because they are happening simultaneously. But I know of several officials that have worked state championship games in both boys and girls, in different seasons.

M&M, I am not saying there are not people that work both, but there are many more officials in the area I live than in other parts of the state. Most officials do not work a full schedule of both. First of all they could not if they wanted to because officials have other obligations. Now in rural Illinois and where schools make the assignments, it is much more common and necessary to work both. Where I live, there are assignors that will not hire you on the Boy's side if you work Girl's games. Are there guys that work both? Yes, but they usually are not playoff Boy's officials or they work for the very few assignors that assign both (which is rare BTW) in a particular conference. I have even had assignors tip toe around the issue of asking me (and other officials) to work a girl's game and I have never made it know that I would never work a girl's game. They look at what I am already doing and come to a conclusion. Also when guys work the state finals, they do not do it in the same year (which is practically impossible with they way the games run). They do it years apart from each other and more and more this is become rare. If you look in the handbook, I can only remember one official that has worked a Class AA Boy's Final that has previously worked a Girl's Final. What you are saying might have been more common 10 years ago, but now it is very rare.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, I can't help but say the following: I'm not sure how it is where you live, but where I live (sorry ) that's not entirely the case. Many of the schools in our area hire their own officials, and many officials work both girls and boys varsity. Some AD's of the smaller schools almost require doing both. There are, of course, some officials that only work boys varsity by their own choice. There are also some class AA leagues that use an assignor, but I have seen officials that work both sides of those leagues as well.

Remember you asked what I feel it should be. You did not ask me what it is across the board. I gave you an opinion and I feel that way quite strongly. I also do not see many officials that can successfully make the transition.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm well aware of that. At least in college, there are different rules, mechanics and philosophies between the games. I suppose the prevailing thought is that in order to be good, you should concentrate on one or the other. As an official moves up in college, men's or women's, they are also encouraged to give up high school games for this reason.

Well I can tell you that many high level officials do not completely give up their roots in HS officiating if there are not major conflicts. Unless an official is working several D1 conferences and many still stick to HS ball on some level. All the D1 officials I know personally still work HS games. The only one I know that might not work a single HS game just worked his first NCAA Tournament game this year and is a HS assignor. Even he gets out and works a game or two to cover the schedule on his days off.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, in HS, the rules and mechanics are the same; the only difference is the style of play. So, if you are a good official, shouldn't you be able to adjust to different styles of play? If you're only good enough to do the boys' style, and not the girls', maybe you're good enough to work the boys' game where they fast break and shoot 3's all night, but you're not good enough to adjust to the boy's game where they run set offenses all night, right? Is there any difference in how you interact with a boy's team's coach vs. a girl's team's coach? How specialized are you as an official? Or, are you just a good official? I'm not sure there are specific answers; each person might have different likes and dislikes - just something to think about.

Well the styles and expectations are a big factor if you ask me. I have found that a lot of girl's coaches expect little contact to be called and when you do not all hell break loose. If you call that kind of game in a boy's game (and conference factors as well) and will get run out of the entire league. Of course I could adjust, but many do not do it very well from my opinion. I hear that "adjust" point of view all the time but I do not see many successfully "adjust." I am also speaking from experience, because I worked both for several years. I cut back greatly on working girl's basketball not because it was hard to do, but the expectations that I had and the coaches wanted were not the same.

Here is another thing; we are never going to agree on this. If you feel you can do both you have a right to feel that way. I can tell you the people that are making decisions on who works what and when, do not agree with that point of view. I also do not go by what people say I go by what they do. Remember we have an assignor for girl's basketball and an assignor for boy's basketball. Robinson is not around anymore and the way things were done with Robby has changed. Unless something drastically changes in the current system, you will see fewer officials working both in this era. We must also make it clear that there is a huge difference between rural Illinois and metropolitan Illinois. Even in rural Illinois where some conferences have an assignor, I can tell you they do not just put anyone on the both sides very often. I still work games in some of those conferences and I have never been asked to ever work a girl's game and I never told anyone to not hire me on the girl's side.

Peace

[dblref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Boy's and Girl's basketball are not the same game. That should be enough to keep the pools separate.

Peace

In my association, we don't have separate pools. And, if my quickly fading memory serves me correctly, in the past 4-5 years we have had female officials working quarter-final and semi-final games at state. I believe we had a female official from our association work the girls AA final 3 years ago. Our classifications are A, AA, and AAA. Boys & girls finals for all 3 classifications are played the same day - same location. First game at 11:00 and last one at 9:00. Man, your butt really gets sore sitting that long. My wife has been gracious enough to grant me a "kitchen pass" for that day for the last 5 years.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm not contesting the facts of the way it is. I'm asking you:

Are you happy with that? Is that a good system? Do you think that their spots should be up for grabs each year if there are people out there who can make that challenge?

Well, I was hoping not to go there, but yes I wish the spots were up for grabs each year, but that's not happening here. We had 2 vets retire this off-season so that will open up a lot of "top" games. None of the over-50 guys on my board go to any type of camps in the off-season, not even the local "get the rust off" HS team camps. They just show up in the fall and work their normal schedule. When one of them gets hurt or retires, then better games open up for younger officials.

Originally Posted by JRut

Boy's and Girl's basketball are not the same game. That should be enough to keep the pools separate.

That's not realistic nor would it be fair in my region. My schedule was all varsity last year, but it was about 60-40 tilted to the Girls side. Most officials wouldn't want to work if they knew there were only going to get a Girls schedule. A good official should be able to make the game-by-game adjustment from a GJV to BJV to GV to BV to NCAA (JuCo Men in my case). I agree with the separation at the NCAA level b/c of the different rules, coverage areas, and mechanics. But HS and below I see no need for a separate pool, nor would it work here in Virginia.

[Grail]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How did grade school come into this conversation?

In our state you cannot work both Boy's and Girl's playoffs. You definitely cannot work Men's and Women's basketball at the same time.

In many cases you cannot get assigned both boy's and girl's basketball without getting a lot of grief for it (might hurt in assignment with boy's games for sure).

I hate to contradict you, but one of our association members worked through the Boys AA secitonals and a Girls AA Super-Sectional. He works high level games throughout the season in both Boys and Girls action. Some areas may frown on it, but certainly not all of your STATE.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Grail

I hate to contradict you, but one of our association members worked through the Boys AA secitonals and a Girls AA Super-Sectional. He works high level games throughout the season in both Boys and Girls action. Some areas may frown on it, but certainly not all of your STATE.

I did not say there were not expectations or a couple of people that did that. I can tell you having personally tracked the Class A Boy's State Finals and I know the two people that sent emails to associations all across the state for Class AA Boys and Girls Class A and AA Playoffs there were only a handful of people that even worked both. I worked a regional a couple of years ago with an official that worked a Class AA Girl's Super-Sectional and Class AA Boy's Sectional in the same year. The next year he worked the State Finals in Class AA Girls and he did not get a single Class AA Boy's assignment. I can tell you he was not happy. I also have know two officials that worked Class AA Boy's Regionals for years, then when they worked the Class AA Girl's Final for two years, they did not get any assignments for Boy's anymore. They need around 160 officials for Class AA assignments. If all you can come up with is one or two guys that work both that does not sound like a ringing endorsement to me. I think you need to look at the numbers overall and not a couple examples of people that work both.

There are 64 Class AA Regionals throughout the entire State of Illinois. They need at least 192 officials to work those regionals at 3 officials for one site (some regionals have 3 extra officials to help work a double header). I bet there were not 10% of those on the Boy's side that worked a single Girl's playoff game. Many do not make themselves available. Others do not get assigned or work enough games to get assigned girl's games.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say there were not expectations or a couple of people that did that. I can tell you having personally tracked the Class A Boy's State Finals and I know the two people that sent emails to associations all across the state for Class AA Boys and Girls Class A and AA Playoffs there were only a handful of people that even worked both. I worked a regional a couple of years ago with an official that worked a Class AA Girl's Super-Sectional and Class AA Boy's Sectional in the same year. The next year he worked the State Finals in Class AA Girls and he did not get a single Class AA Boy's assignment. I can tell you he was not happy. I also have know two officials that worked Class AA Boy's Regionals for years, then when they worked the Class AA Girl's Final for two years, they did not get any assignments for Boy's anymore. They need around 160 officials for Class AA assignments. If all you can come up with is one or two guys that work both that does not sound like a ringing endorsement to me. I think you need to look at the numbers overall and not a couple examples of people that work both.

There are 64 Class AA Regionals throughout the entire State of Illinois. They need at least 192 officials to work those regionals at 3 officials for one site (some regionals have 3 extra officials to help work a double header). I bet there were not 10% of those on the Boy's side that worked a single Girl's playoff game. Many do not make themselves available. Others do not get assigned or work enough games to get assigned girl's games.

Peace

I also know of at least two officials in our association alone that did not work any girls' varsity games during the season, but still received a girls regional assignment, at least 2 years running. So we can probably bat around a bunch of numbers for a while and not come to many conclusions.

But, here are my questions to you:
- Do you feel we should separate "girls" and "boys" officials?
- If so, why? If not, why not?
- If so, do you feel the "better" officials should be on the boys side? In other words, do feel the boys game is a "better" game, and deserves more or most of the "better" officials? Or should officials be assigned or hired without regard for which type of game is being played that night?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, here are my questions to you:
- Do you feel we should separate "girls" and "boys" officials?

Yes there should be separation if possible. There should be no separation as officials are starting out and learning the game. When you make that move to the varsity level, there should be a pool of officials that work the girl’s and a different pool that work the boy’s. The reality in this state about the separation there is pretty much already the case over most of the state. I work in many conferences outside of the Chicago area and I know officials that live in the bigger cities outside of Chicago and it is not common that you will work those big schools working both girl’s and boy’s basketball in those same conferences.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

- If so, why? If not, why not?

I do not feel officials can effectively work both. The standards are different, the expectations are different and the games are different. I worked a big AAU tournament and the things that were expected to be called would never fly on the boy’s side. Girls would barely touch each other and coaches were screaming for fouls. When I would explain things like “there was no advantage” or “the defender was just standing there and the shooter caused all the contact,” I got looks as if I turned a different race. My game clearly did not fit in to this situation. My partner called any little contact no matter how hard or if the contact actually knocked anyone down. Also this tournament was associated with a D1 Women’s camp. I was only working games that were two person and I am being compensated for my time while most of the officials paid to get seen, I could not recognize the same officials and the way they called the game. I attended a high level D1 camp on the Men’s side and it looked like another world.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

- If so, do you feel the "better" officials should be on the boy’s side? In other words, do feel the boys game is a "better" game, and deserves more or most of the "better" officials? Or should officials be assigned or hired without regard for which type of game is being played that night?

The better officials should work wherever they want to work. If an official prefers the Girl's side, more power to them. I just do not see many that can affectively go back and forth and call the game the way it is expected to. I think you are better off to concentrate on one or the other. I do not know why when these conversations come up; it always has to be about where the better officials should go. The one thing

The problem with girl's basketball here, I saw during a Christmas Tournament an official wear black jeans and the assignor and no one batted an eye.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes there should be separation if possible. There should be no separation as officials are starting out and learning the game. When you make that move to the varsity level, there should be a pool of officials that work the girl’s and a different pool that work the boy’s. The reality in this state about the separation there is pretty much already the case over most of the state. I work in many conferences outside of the Chicago area and I know officials that live in the bigger cities outside of Chicago and it is not common that you will work those big schools working both girl’s and boy’s basketball in those same conferences.



I do not feel officials can effectively work both. The standards are different, the expectations are different and the games are different. I worked a big AAU tournament and the things that were expected to be called would never fly on the boy’s side. Girls would barely touch each other and coaches were screaming for fouls. When I would explain things like “there was no advantage” or “the defender was just standing there and the shooter caused all the contact,” I got looks as if I turned a different race. My game clearly did not fit in to this situation. My partner called any little contact no matter how hard or if the contact actually knocked anyone down. Also this tournament was associated with a D1 Women’s camp. I was only working games that were two person and I am being compensated for my time while most of the officials paid to get seen, I could not recognize the same officials and the way they called the game. I attended a high level D1 camp on the Men’s side and it looked like another world.



The better officials should work wherever they want to work. If an official prefers the Girl's side, more power to them. I just do not see many that can affectively go back and forth and call the game the way it is expected to. I think you are better off to concentrate on one or the other. I do not know why when these conversations come up; it always has to be about where the better officials should go. The one thing

Peace

Definitely a regionalized opinion and system. Not the same here in VA.

[bicepsforyou]

Yes red over red is bad. Gotta have at least one experienced ref on the floor.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It doesn't. It's just an observation of the typical career projression of the majority of officials. Some get there much quicker, some never do..

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Come on, we're not talking 60 year olds. The guys I'm talking about are in their 30's and 40's. I certainly agree with you on your point...there comes a time when age takes it's toll. There are very few 60 year old ref's working varsity ball and those that are work lower levels.

Come check out my area.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Again, wrong ages. Most of the bunch is 35-40 with may a couple approaching 50....most of them also work college ball. They are the best officials, even if a couple of them couldn't match up with a 17 year old in a sprint.

Wow, if you folks have a bunch of 35-40 yr olds with 15-20 yrs of exp, then you are either very fortunate or are doing your recruiting, training, and retention very well. I'd guess that most of them are in the 7-12 yrs of exp range though and that is how long I think that it takes to really become a top level official.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Absolutely. But the point of my posts was that some good officials are giving it up before they even have any real experience...after 2-4 years. It's a phenomona all to common in modern culture....everyone wants to be hired into a CEO position straight out of college.

Yep, that's a problem. Some actually bail out only a year or two before they are going to working those big games.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Agreed.

Wow, if you folks have a bunch of 35-40 yr olds with 15-20 yrs of exp, then you are either very fortunate or are doing your recruiting, training, and retention very well. I'd guess that most of them are in the 7-12 yrs of exp range though and that is how long I think that it takes to really become a top level official.

Well, I doubled checked with real data. My estimations were off just a little...by about 5 years. Of our tourney officials, we actually have several in their lower 40's and a few in their late 30's with the average being in the mid 40's. I don't have data on when they actually started but I know that all but a couple were established officials when I started in 1993. Additionally, all of them are very fit atheletically.

We do have a fairly low turnover after the first few years. A lot of new officials come in thinking they'll get varisty games in 2-3 years and are disappointed when they realize that it's not going to happen. There are a lot of good officials with 5-10 years experience in line for the varsity games. A newer official will not likely pass them up unless the newer official is clearly better (it does happen). If you work at it, your schedule will steadily improve.

The good retention probably comes from a longtime, steady leader that doesn't typically shuffle people quickly up or down. He's been the commissioner of our association longer than all but a few of our officials have even been officiating....something like 30 years. The retention of more experienced officials would dramitically degrade if you started pushing guys back down before they really couldn't do the job only because a younger, faster official was only just as good. It's a little bit old-school...with loyalty to those who've delivered for you in the past until they show they can't do it anymore.