Class 5A State Finals--Florida

[JRutledge]

I just happen to be watching Fox College Sports (Atlantic) this afternoon because I am bored. The Class 5A State Finals are on TV and there are 3 women working the game. According to the commentators this is the first time an all-female officiating crew is working a boy's state final in Florida.

This made me think about other states. Has this happen in other states. I cannot even think of a single female official to work a post season boy's game here, let alone a state final.

I also noticed another odd occurrence. In our Class AA (Big schools of a two class system) State Finals, there was a coach that won a 3rd place game and most of the tournament he was wearing a sweat suit and not a business suit or business look like all the other coaches. Now when I was watching this game from Florida, both coaches were in what I would call "business casual" at best. Now where I live it is very typical for coaches to be in suits for varsity contest and at the worst they were a sweater that looks like a Bobby Knight style look. Was the business casual look common in the state of Florida or other warm area states or is this just something unusual?

BTW, one of the coaches got T'd up.

If you could not tell already, I am really bored.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you could not tell already, I am really bored.

Peace

Why aren't you watching the MLB Celebrity Softball Game? Or, if you did, who won?

Jeff, I'm not sure if you know, but has an all-female crew even worked one of the girls' finals here in IL?

I know of a couple of women officials that would do a fine job on the boys side, but for some reason, they don't do many boys HS games. I think it might be because the better ones get taken to do women's college, and the few HS games they do will probably be girls.

[tjones1]

Wearing a sweat suit during the game is very unprofessional in my opinion. I remember when it happened it made news down in this area. Oh well...whatever floats his boat.

I would say you're onto something Jim. I doubt there has been an all women crew work the Boys State Finals just because the good ones are working college ball.

[zebraman]

Here in Washington State, I can only recall one woman who has ever worked a boys game at a state tournament.

It is very common to have women working the girl's state tournaments and many of them have worked state championship games. Many of our state's best female college officials work a fairly full high school schedule as well.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Why aren't you watching the MLB Celebrity Softball Game? Or, if you did, who won?

I won’t watch the All-Star game, why would I watch a Celebrity Softball game?

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Jeff, I'm not sure if you know, but has an all-female crew even worked one of the girls' finals here in IL?

Actually I did realize that. I have combed over the IHSA handbook and I have never seen but one or two female officials working in the state finals out of the 12 officials. I do know we do not have the numbers of female officials in basketball as they seemed to have in other sports like Volleyball.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I know of a couple of women officials that would do a fine job on the boys side, but for some reason, they don't do many boys HS games. I think it might be because the better ones get taken to do women's college, and the few HS games they do will probably be girls.

I have actually worked varsity games with a couple of female officials. I would agree the qualifications are not at issue, but the opportunities are. I do know some D1 female officials that just have not been given an opportunity to work HS varsity boy's games. I just found this very interesting since you almost never see that here.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

This was mentioned on the forum a few months ago.

You've come a long way, baby


BTW a female was part of the 3 person crew for the boys 2A state final in NV this past season.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by zebraman

It is very common to have women working the girl's state tournaments and many of them have worked state championship games. Many of our state's best female college officials work a fairly full high school schedule as well.Z

Could someone please bring these enlightened attitudes down here to our Neanderthal neck of the woods? We're lucky to have women refs working even the playoff games on the girls side. In fact, the way things go, we're lucky to have any women refs in high school at all.

Eeekk. Sorry, folks. This one pushed my buttons. It's been a very unpleasant summer politically. I promise not to rant again for at least a week or two. And to think seriously about switching up to Washington.

[RonRef]

In Wisconsin we have never had a female work any postseason assignments on the boys side, to my knowledge, and we have a female in charge of our basketball here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Could someone please bring these enlightened attitudes down here to our Neanderthal neck of the woods? We're lucky to have women refs working even the playoff games on the girls side. In fact, the way things go, we're lucky to have any women refs in high school at all.

Eeekk. Sorry, folks. This one pushed my buttons. It's been a very unpleasant summer politically. I promise not to rant again for at least a week or two. And to think seriously about switching up to Washington.

Juulie, I hope you're not completely serious (read all this before you pass judgement on my statements).

While there have been few women make it to the tourney, there have been few qualified to pick from (and I have voted for all of them). The best upcoming women officials I've seen don't stick around long enough to even get on the ballot, much less get in a tourney. Look at all the men who went to the tourney this year: every single one of them has been officiating 15-20+ YEARS....you don't get there quickly....even as a male. I think I can count on one hand the number of females that are in the PBOA that have been officiating that long. Even the next 20-30 officials on the list have worked 10-15+ years. The women that do continue officiating often moved on to college ball or have moved away.

The typical good official (male or female) will be working 4-7 years in the PBOA before getting a varsity game (of any kind) much less a playoff game. Many promising officials (male or female) I've seen don't stick it out long enough to get there. They all want it today. If you look at our association of 350 people and realize that the number of varisty games we do accounts for only ~15% of the games, it becomes pretty clear that there are a lot of people not getting varsity games. Unless there are varsity officials leaving, you've got to be clearly better to take their games away from them, not just as good.

Also, if you look at the percentages of females in the association, they get a larger % of varsity games than thier actual numbers suggest. A female official gets varisty games well before a similarly skilled male official. You'll also notice that the percentage of females drops as the experience level goes up (larger percentage of females among newer members as compared to the older members). Put simply, many women come in, see few women officials at the top, and give up...not sticking around long enough to get women to the top and not realizing they were getting there faster than thier male peers.

When I see a newer official that stands out, I'll often tell the commissioner/assignor about it. I've done so for several over the years including several women. Not one of those women that I gave very positive feedback on stuck around more than 2-3 years while several of the men have. Where'd they go? I don't know but there were not here long enough to get anywhere.

All that said, there is a stong belief around the association that there are several officials just out of the tourney votes that are just as qualified as the last few to get in...the way popular votes often go. There are going to be changes in the tourney selection system that will mix things things up. Several more officials will now get a shot. In fact, I think it will guarantee that you'll see more women and minorities from the PBOA in the playoffs. I can think of at least 2 women that have never been to the playoffs that, under the proposed system, will likely be there within 3 years...probably at the girls 5A. Those two are also officials that have been around for many years.

[zebraman]

What Camron said is true here in Washington State as well. Anytime we get a woman official on the girls side with any ability at all, she is promoted very quickly. Much quicker than a man of equal ability. Call it mentoring, call it "good for the girls game," call it whatever you want. It happens. As hard as we try to recruit female officials, it's hard to find many. When we get a decent one, we do all we can to help them succeed as fast as possible. If we're guilty of anything, it's pushing them up too fast. But on the girls side, I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.

I know that when I go to a state tournament on the girls side, I have to be considerably better than any woman there, not just slightly better, in order to get the championship game. I have no problem with that, in fact I enjoy the challenge and I know what the "ground rules" are before I get there.

Despite the fact that we bend over backwards to promote quality female officials, many of the female officials who don't climb the ladder quickly think it's a "Neanderthal thing." No different really than the men who don't climb the ladder quickly and blame it on politics or a good-old boy network.

Z

[Raymond]

In my area there just aren't many female officials from which to pull. I would be really generous if I were to guess that there are 10 women in our local association.

The best of those is inactive b/c her college schedule is so heavy (2 major D1's, 4 mid-major D1's, one D2, one D3). She worked boys' games during the regular season and district play-offs but our commissioner would only nominate her for girls' side when it came time for the state tourney. She, IMO, is the best referee, man or woman, who I've seen in my association.

The next best lady ref starting officiating with me a little less than 5 years ago and she is in 4 college conferences already (including one mid-major D1). She's worked BJV but I'm pretty sure she hasn't done any BV games as of yet.

There is one other high quality female official on the board. She also does some BJV but no BV at all. After her the drop-off in talent in female officials on my board is precipitous, IMO.

We have quite a few high-quality male officials who do not work college basketball, but only one high-quality female who doesn't. Quality female officials get gobbled up by the college ranks. Male officials have to grind a little more.

Here's the question: Do you want your best female official working the Girls' state championship or the Boys' state championship?

My personal opinion, but I think the girls who play the game like seeing a female ref working the important GIRLS games.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Juulie, I hope you're not completely serious (read all this before you pass judgement on my statements).

While there have been few women make it to the tourney, there have been few qualified to pick from (and I have voted for all of them). The best upcoming women officials I've seen don't stick around long enough to even get on the ballot, much less get in a tourney. Look at all the men who went to the tourney this year: every single one of them has been officiating 15-20+ YEARS....you don't get there quickly....even as a male. I think I can count on one hand the number of females that are in the PBOA that have been officiating that long. Even the next 20-30 officials on the list have worked 10-15+ years. The women that do continue officiating often moved on to college ball or have moved away.

The typical good official (male or female) will be working 4-7 years in the PBOA before getting a varsity game (of any kind) much less a playoff game. Many promising officials (male or female) I've seen don't stick it out long enough to get there. They all want it today. If you look at our association of 350 people and realize that the number of varisty games we do accounts for only ~15% of the games, it becomes pretty clear that there are a lot of people not getting varsity games. Unless there are varsity officials leaving, you've got to be clearly better to take their games away from them, not just as good.

Also, if you look at the percentages of females in the association, they get a larger % of varsity games than thier actual numbers suggest. A female official gets varisty games well before a similarly skilled male official. You'll also notice that the percentage of females drops as the experience level goes up (larger percentage of females among newer members as compared to the older members). Put simply, many women come in, see few women officials at the top, and give up...not sticking around long enough to get women to the top and not realizing they were getting there faster than thier male peers.

When I see a newer official that stands out, I'll often tell the commissioner/assignor about it. I've done so for several over the years including several women. Not one of those women that I gave very positive feedback on stuck around more than 2-3 years while several of the men have. Where'd they go? I don't know but there were not here long enough to get anywhere.

All that said, there is a stong belief around the association that there are several officials just out of the tourney votes that are just as qualified as the last few to get in...the way popular votes often go. There are going to be changes in the tourney selection system that will mix things things up. Several more officials will now get a shot. In fact, I think it will guarantee that you'll see more women and minorities from the PBOA in the playoffs. I can think of at least 2 women that have never been to the playoffs that, under the proposed system, will likely be there within 3 years...probably at the girls 5A. Those two are also officials that have been around for many years.

Camron -- you and I have debated this before, and I know there's not a lot of agreement between us. I don't think this is the place for this discussion. The basic fact is that women don't stick around because they don't see any point to sticking around. If they're good they move up to college. If they're not, they just quit. I know these are facts because I talk to these people.

Also, even if the PBOA changes their tournament selection process, there's still the whole OSAA thing to get around. How will having both boys' and girls' tournaments at the same time, same site, make it more likely for women to get to the tournament? Has it helped at 1A, or 2A in the past? Fact is, this is going to be retrograde, and I personally think it's at least partially....

no, I'm not going to say that. No point.

Lastly, even if PBOA is the most enlightened organization in the country, what about the rest of the state? It's even more neanderthal in Burns, Medford, Pendleton and even Eugene than it is here in Portland. Ya gotta admit, there's not a lot of future for women in high school basketball officiating in Oregon.

[JRutledge]

I belong to 3 Official's associations and we do not have 3 female officials in all those associations combined (that I am aware of). I did belong to an association that has many more women, but they work mostly college and advance very fast in the girl's tournament. In our state it is also almost impossible to work all the way through on both boy's and girl's basketball at the same time. So the women officials mostly stick to the girl's side. Women advance quicker (than anyone I might add on the boy's or girl's officiating) on the girl's side. Unless a woman just did everything to commit themselves to boy's basketball, I do not see anything taking shape. Unless something changes drastically in this state, I do not see a single woman working a boy's state final. There just are not the numbers and there most would rather work college ball. Right now this is a man's game because women show hardly any interest. Men find all kinds of ways to be apart of sports and women seemed to not care. That might be seen as a stereotype, but when I see guys in their 40s left and right joining officiating in many sports and you cannot even get a young women to try officiating, that tells me that sports is still a man's thing to do and not yet a women's vast interest.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Camron -- you and I have debated this before, and I know there's not a lot of agreement between us. I don't think this is the place for this discussion. The basic fact is that women don't stick around because they don't see any point to sticking around. If they're good they move up to college. If they're not, they just quit. I know these are facts because I talk to these people.

You just proved my point....they're either so good they move past HS or, if they're not that good, they bolt before they've even been around long enough to get anywhere...not realizing they were already getting there faster than the males that started at the same time. The few that have stuck around long enough do get boys varisty games and do get into the tourney...but there are few. It's easy to quit after 2-3 years and blame the system rather than actually work the 10, 15, or even 20 years it takes to actually get to the top.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Also, even if the PBOA changes their tournament selection process, there's still the whole OSAA thing to get around. How will having both boys' and girls' tournaments at the same time, same site, make it more likely for women to get to the tournament? Has it helped at 1A, or 2A in the past? Fact is, this is going to be retrograde, and I personally think it's at least partially....

Not sure what you mean....it sounds like you may be a little out of date with your info. The OSAA, with the goal of getting more females into better tourney games and have more of the top men working the mid/lower level girls games, was considering having ALL levels (1A - 6A) be combined boys/girls tourneys and requiring that officials at those tourneys work at least one game of each gender. The hope was that this would get some women chances to work some upper level boys tourney games.

However, the slots would fill from the top of the vote rankings in a predictable fashion. The top ranking men have historically selected a lower lever combined boys/girls tourney than the higher level girls-only tourney and will likely to continue to do so. But, with them all being combined, they men would select the highest level tourney. Unless the female was at the very top of the votes in their association such a system would actually make it less likely that female officials would get to work a high level girls game than the current system since it would more likely be taken. This proposal would have had an effect opposite of what was desired...virtually eliminating women from all the top level tourneys for at least the near future

So, they decided to split the boys and girls for the 5A and 6A levels. Men will likely select the 4A combined over the 5A girls and quite probably over the 6A girls as well. So, all else equal, the women will have at least as good a shot at the 5A and 6A girls as before. If they chose a combined tourney, they'll be working at least one boys tournament game.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

no, I'm not going to say that. No point.

Lastly, even if PBOA is the most enlightened organization in the country, what about the rest of the state? It's even more neanderthal in Burns, Medford, Pendleton and even Eugene than it is here in Portland. Ya gotta admit, there's not a lot of future for women in high school basketball officiating in Oregon.

Certainly not if they quit well before giving it the many, many year that the men give it....as you claim to know is the case. I kown absolutely nothing about how other associations do their business. Perhaps it is lagging Portland. But if your description is any indication, there aren't enough good women officials willing to pay their dues to change things.


Do you really think it'd be fair to have someone who's been working to get get improve and move up for 15-20 years to get games taken away and given to a 4th or 5th year official who's not nearly as good (yet). If someone wants to get to the top, they must be willing to put in same level of the effort, dedication, determination, and patience to get there as those that are there have already done. Noone can expect an express pass to leapfrog them ahead of those who've working for those same spots for over a decade.

Yes, there are a lot of men at the top but they didn't get there overnight.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...work the 10, 15, or even 20 years it takes to actually get to the top.

Why does your state/local association believe that it takes that long for an official to be of top quality?

Wouldn't the counter effects of aging actually push the more senior official down the ladder? For example, the degrading physical qualities of a 60 year old ref who has been in it for 30 years might put him on par with a 7 yr ref.

I don't know what the average age is that most HS officials take up the avocation, but let's just guess that it is about age 30. That means that your 10 year official is 40 and your 20 year vet is 50.
Do we really want three 50+ officials out there chasing 17 yr old players up and down the court on a State Final?

Clearly experience and age are on opposite sides of the scales. As one gains experience the cost is paid by your youth fading away..
So shouldn't we strive to strike an optimum balance between the two?
What is that point? I think that would make for an interesting debate.