Spectator interference at a critical point

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Billy, I don't think that there's anything definitively covering it under NFHS or NCAA rules. This is probably one of the very few times that NFHS 2-3 can be used. From a logical standpoint, I'd say that if you were sure that the pass was gonna go OOB untouched, then blow the whistle and give team B the ball OOB at that spot for fan interference. That's seems like the fair call to me and I don't think that you'd get too many arguments over that.

Note that I certainly can't fault you for letting the play continue. That play certainly rates a "whatinthehell?".

I agree with these comments as well. Call the fan interference right away. Give the ball to the defense and move along.

[Official99]

While I disagree with just giving the ball to the defence in this case, I also don't think you can just award an indirect T to the coach. There are many situations that can occur. What if this T is the third T for the coach? Now because of an unsupporting fan, he has to leave?

What ever happens, needs to happen quick. I think this biggest thing between your call going smoothly and having problems is you need to sell it. Make the call. Tell the coaches. Sell it like you've made that call a million times before and move on. You will have to do it quickly, because the last thing a coach wants to see in this situation, is you not knowing what to do!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Official99

1) While I disagree with just giving the ball to the defence in this case, I also don't think you can just award an indirect T to the coach. There are many situations that can occur. What if this T is the third T for the coach? Now because of an unsupporting fan, he has to leave?

2) What ever happens, needs to happen quick. I think this biggest thing between your call going smoothly and having problems is you need to sell it. Make the call. Tell the coaches. Sell it like you've made that call a million times before and move on. You will have to do it quickly, because the last thing a coach wants to see in this situation, is you not knowing what to do!

1) Where did you come up with that? You're completely wrong under both NCAA and NFHS rules. In both rulesets, if a technical foul is called on a team's fans, that "T" is charged to the team. The head coach doesn't get charged with any kind of technical foul. Re-read what Dan_Ref and Chuck wrote.

2)So......you disagree with giving the balll to the defense. What would you do instead? What call are you going to sell?

[TADW_Elessar]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I had a game (yes, intramural league, but there were probably 75 spectators there because it was late in the playoffs) where a shot went up just before the buzzer. The shot, had it been good, would have changed the outcome of the game. A spectator sitting near the front row at that end of the gym threw a basketball that he had been holding onto the court, toward the basket, and it contacted the game ball headed for the basket. It was entirely possible, based on the way the shot looked, that it could have gone in the basket.

The spectator was not there for any specific team - he was looking to get out on the court after the game. It was not intended to interfere with the shot (I know the kid pretty well - he admitted this afterwards, and I believe him). Obviously he was disciplined.

Extra information aside, how would you deal with this kind of interference which clearly could have affected the outcome of a game? It's possible (however unlikely) that something similar could happen in a real game - we all know anything and everything eventually does happen. What do you do? I honestly don't think there is a solution (short of a lynch mob for the spectator - haha j/k) that would make anyone happy, even if there is a solution. But I am curious to see how people would respond to this from an officials' point of view.

From a FIBA point of view the situation is quite simple.

We simply do nothing, since we can't call anything like a technical foul on a spectator. The match ends and we report whatever happened to the federation judge, who would most likely declare the team which had the shot diverted winner (0-20) and fine the opponents, for they had not prevented their spectators from interfering with the game.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Official99

While I disagree with just giving the ball to the defence in this case, I also don't think you can just award an indirect T to the coach. There are many situations that can occur. What if this T is the third T for the coach? Now because of an unsupporting fan, he has to leave?

What ever happens, needs to happen quick. I think this biggest thing between your call going smoothly and having problems is you need to sell it. Make the call. Tell the coaches. Sell it like you've made that call a million times before and move on. You will have to do it quickly, because the last thing a coach wants to see in this situation, is you not knowing what to do!

Why would you have a problem giving the ball to the defense? The Offense made the pass it was evidently going out of bounds according to the OP (sorry BillyMac's OP). Blow the whistle make your signal, going this way, move along. Of course if D had deflected the pass then thats another story right!

[Official99]

First of all, I appoligize for the confusion. When I made my comments, I thought we were still speaking of the original post which was fan interference during a shot - not a pass intended to be out of bounds. If the ball was intended to go out of bounds, I agree, give it to the defence.

My reference to selling the call would be in the case of the shot. If that were the case, there is no call that any referee makes that is going to make everyone happy.

In regards to the T, I was still speaking of the original post, where the person who threw the object onto the floor was not afilliated with either team. Assessing a T in that situation just doesn't seem fair to me; although it would be allowed by rules.

Sorry for the confusion guys. Thanks for getting all worked up...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Official99

In regards to the T, I was still speaking of the original post, where the person who threw the object onto the floor was not afilliated with either team. Assessing a T in that situation just doesn't seem fair to me; although it would be allowed by rules.

Sorry for the confusion guys. Thanks for getting all worked up...

Naw, we don't get worked up. Maybe we do point out rules errors though. As in.....your statement above. The rules, both NFHS and NCAA, do not allow an official to call a "T" on a fan that hasn't been definitively identified as a supporter of one of the teams involved. Dblref quite rightly has already pointed that out. Both of the citations given yesterday by Dan_ref also referred to "T"s given to team followers only, not some guy who just wandered in the door to watch the game and ain't really cheering for one team or t'other.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Except it is addressed

Section 10. Officials’ Duties Related to Conduct

A.R. 15. After a foul is called against a home team player, just before the free-thrower releases the ball, he/she is hit by a coin thrown by a spectator. RULING: Assess an indirect technical foul against the home team, award the visiting team two free throws and put the ball in play at the point of interruption. (See Rule 10-5.2.)

Actually, I read this to say that if the spectator interference creates a clear advantage for one team, you can make an assumption and issue the T. AR 15 says nothing about knowing who the spectator was supporting, and his action was in direct (even if unintentional) support of one team over another.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Actually, I read this to say that if the spectator interference creates a clear advantage for one team, you can make an assumption and issue the T. AR 15 says nothing about knowing who the spectator was supporting, and his action was in direct (even if unintentional) support of one team over another.

AR 14 that was also posted by Dan and that clarifies it a bit better imo. That one refers to penalizing a team's supporters. The NFHS rulesmakers also used pretty specific language in casebook play 2.8.1 too. That case play also refers to penalizing a team's followers or supporters. Any doubt, you don't penalize. The quote from that case play is "While the authority is there , the official must rarely use it, because experience has demonstrated that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem and may, in fact, result in penalizing the wrong team because the official may not have proper knowledge as to which team's supporters were responsible for the unsporting act".

Iow, no assumptions in either NCAA or FED games. Gotta know for sure.

[Official99]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

AR 14 that was also posted by Dan and that clarifies it a bit better imo. That one refers to penalizing a team's supporters. The NFHS rulesmakers also used pretty specific language in casebook play 2.8.1 too. That case play also refers to penalizing a team's followers or supporters. Any doubt, you don't penalize. The quote from that case play is "While the authority is there , the official must rarely use it, because experience has demonstrated that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem and may, in fact, result in penalizing the wrong team because the official may not have proper knowledge as to which team's supporters were responsible for the unsporting act".

Iow, no assumptions in either NCAA or FED games. Gotta know for sure.

Which brings us right back to the question we started with..... WHAT DO WE DO?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Official99

Which brings us right back to the question we started with..... WHAT DO WE DO?

There's really no definitive answer. Go back to page 1 and pick something you agree with, I guess.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I had a game (yes, intramural league, but there were probably 75 spectators there because it was late in the playoffs) where a shot went up just before the buzzer. The shot, had it been good, would have changed the outcome of the game. A spectator sitting near the front row at that end of the gym threw a basketball that he had been holding onto the court, toward the basket, and it contacted the game ball headed for the basket. It was entirely possible, based on the way the shot looked, that it could have gone in the basket.

The spectator was not there for any specific team - he was looking to get out on the court after the game. It was not intended to interfere with the shot (I know the kid pretty well - he admitted this afterwards, and I believe him). Obviously he was disciplined.

I have no rule basis to back up my answer, but based on this thread, it appears there is no definitive ruling to follow for this particular situation.

So that being said (assuming neutral court and/or no fan affiliation), I think I would treat it the same as an inadvertant whistle. In this case, there being no team control, I would go with the AP arrow. Of course now we would have to establish how much, if any, time was on the clock at the time of the interference. If there was no time on the clock, then the shooting team would just be screwed. As far as I can see, there is really no fair and equitable solution to the scenario.

Maybe this needs to be submitted to Chuck for his caseplay project?