|
Tue Feb 28, 2006, 01:05am
|
|||
|
|||
|
bebanovich --
I get your point and I totally agree. The only thing I'd disagree with in your OP is the part about it mattering more to your kids, than to others. I've seen some very privileged, white kids who have had every good teaching and proper parenting, who have no concept of perspective or appropriateness. They need the rules called consistently and impassively to the very end. If it WAS an intentional, and it certainly sounds like it to me, it should have been called as such, but not so much for your players' sake, as for the sake of the poor little white kid, who learns that if you just laugh at the right moment, you can shrug off behavior that's normally unacceptable. And then, the parents of the player should be talking to the coach about working with the kids on their attitudes -- I mean the white kids who really have a lousy coach. As I think about it, I think I'll disagree about one more thing. Your kids can't ever learn the lesson that the rules always work in their favor. The rules are there to make the game better, but they doesn't mean that the kids are always gonna get a "fair" shake from the refs, or the announcers, or the fans, or the college scouts who are watching. I know it's hard to see kids get shafted, when you've tried so hard to teach them to follow rules, and control themselves and so on. The lesson after this game is, "Kids, those refs probably should have called an intentional, but they didn't. You can afford to be the "bigger" men here, and let it go. There's no way that foul hurt you in any way, and it's no big deal." After a game where a "bad call" has taken away an important win, the lesson is, "Yup, you got shafted. But life goes on, and by not getting violent, you have won some important games that are a lot more important than basketball. I know you don't believe me, but I commend your maturity and self-restraint." I'm not just saying this on theory. My daughter, who is black, did get some important stuff taken away from her (and her whole team) in a basketball game, by refs who deliberately conspired. After that game, the coach said, okay, you feel like you got shafted, but life is bigger than this, etc. I needed this lecture as much as those players. I saw clearly that everyone on that team who was going to get a scholarship had already gotten it, and they were able to go on with their lives without suffering materially. Thinking back on it, I see how right he was. The girl who "won" for the other team, struggled through a D2 college basketball career, and is now uncertain what to do with herself, while my daughter's teammates are respectively a doctor, an accountant and a military officer becuase of the D1, D1 and D2 scholarships they won. Wow, you pushed a button, huh? I just want you to see a little more how right you are, and how much more you can be right. One more thing. Sometimes the most empowering thing you can do for your players/offspring/students/mentees is to just assume that they'll handle a situation correctly. After all, that's the goal isnt' it? Maybe the fact that they kept control is the natural outcome of your work and teaching, and if you just sort of see that and comment on it offhandedly, they'll take that as a compliment. Let them be the great kids you've known all along they are. 
|
|
Tue Feb 28, 2006, 06:48pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Communication is a two-way street and a forum is not necessarily the ideal, um, forum for a complex topic but I still don't understand the idea that I'm here working officials or advancing my self-interests. Maybe if someone ever explained the mechanics of how this benefits me rather than just offering it as an accusation I could take it seriously. As far as allowing my players to use race as an excuse for their behavior - I agree with you 100% on this and would also like to point out that there was nothing in the example I gave of my players' behavior that requires an excuse. In fact, the opposing coach offered after the game that of all the teams she had faced this year our team showed the best sportsmanship. This was a meaningful compliment to my kids. Not like the official who was working our game for the first time who went out of his way to come shake my hand after a game and said with a surprised tone, "your kids are sooo nice." While we were going over to shake the opponents' hands my captain quietly asked me, "coach, did he expect us to stab someone?" Nice guy, good intentions, low expectations. Yes, these issues are not simple and there are no fairy tale answers. Which is why I don't just ponce on my kids when they express the idea that they sometimes feel like school is asking them to sell out on their friends and family - their culture. This is not just about race, this is about familiarity and seeing friends and family go through high school and college and get a good job based on that experience. My kids don't have that familiarity and don't understand all of the rules and customs that people who are inundated with those role models take for granted. Can this be an excuse? Hell no! The stakes are way too high and NO ONE besides my students is going to take full responsibilty for their lives. A recent study by The Schott Foundation found that more African-American men are now receiving their GED from prison than receiving a college degree. You better believe my kids are learning the rules, the guidelines, the stakes and what to do with their excuses. There are some legitimate feelings in what students are expressing when they say they feel like they are selling out or having to act more white and I've worked damned hard to create an environment where they feel safe saying it. They are usually expressing it in the context of understanding that the adjustments they are making are a necessary step on the road to success. I'm going to help them process these ideas in a meaningful way and I'll be damned if I'm going to chastise them for having them. They also aren't waiting for racists - well-intentioned or malicious - to stop being racist. It's not really fair that the victims of racism also have to be working the hardest to end it but who ever said life was going to be fair? I didn't post here to ask a quesion (though I sometimes do and wouldn't hesitate to), and I didn't post to bag on the refs in our game - I had my opportunity to communicate with them and I blew it. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I, in any practical sense, still give a rip about the call I referred to in the example. I posted here because it drives me nuts when people - intentionally or not - create an insiders' club by switching up the rules to suit their whims when some people, because of numerous factors which may include race and economics, are working damn hard to learn those rules while also learning about algebra, business, etc.. No one has to assume that's what happened in the example I gave. In fact, let's throw my example out the window and just say, "please beware of assumptions about what it's OK to let slide in a game and for what reasons because our own cultural assumptions often kick in." I also could have given a dozen more examples from games and from the road to and from games that would have been even more inflammatory. What is my agenda for this post? For one or two people to read it and say, "hmmm . . . that might be a point I hadn't thought of," among the litany of negative responses that it will elicit. As a side benefit, I might get to push my own thinking or learn something new by posting with someone like you who cares enough to engage. Maybe I might get a word of encouragement from someone like Rainmaker so I know I'm not just pissing in the wind. [Edited by bebanovich on Feb 28th, 2006 at 06:55 PM]
|
|
Tue Feb 28, 2006, 07:50pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
I did read the article about Bill Cosby and I'm glad he cares about these issues and chooses to speak his mind. I agree with him on some things and disagree with him on more.
I just want to say two things in response: Being White and middle-class does not disqualify you from having meaningful conversations about race. Being Black or Latino (for example) does not make you an expert on race. Being who you are makes you an expert on being who you are. Some have chosen to think, talk and study more about these issues than others and have different levels of experience and exposure They should be fairly granted varying levels of credibilty. But it is my opinion that conversations about race should be free of rhetoric and involve everyone (well almost everyone). [Edited by bebanovich on Feb 28th, 2006 at 07:53 PM]
|
|
Tue Feb 28, 2006, 07:52pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
PS - I am glad the score wasn't close or we might have had a different situation with which to deal here.
|
|
Tue Feb 28, 2006, 08:25pm
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
How do you know the official didn't mean something similar?
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
|
|
Tue Feb 28, 2006, 11:02pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
|
|
Tue Feb 28, 2006, 11:14pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
LOL! I love it! Rut keeps trying to start a fight and everyone is ignoring him! Classic!
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
|
|
Wed Mar 01, 2006, 04:39am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Which brings me to my second point. My statement about being Black not making one an instant expert on race was in response to Mr. Cosby's article. The fact that he is Black gives him a little more credibility out of the gate than, say, someone like me. However, when you factor in that he is bat$h)t-crazy, I think I pull back in the race. Finally, the last couple of lines of your post, "Remember, you think Black people are not aware how they have to act in regular settings outside of their community because they came from a violent area. So I will take you comments for what it is worth." It's hard for me to tell if you seriously think I was saying that. If so, I apologize for the miscommunication. More importantly, however, this thread didn't start out being entirely about race and I don't want to leave the impression that it is. When you really get to the important part about college and careers, it's much more about class. In my situation, at my school, separating race from this equation makes no sense. When you talk specifically about students needing to learn the unwritten rules of succeeding in school, college and career there are, of course, people of every race who have not had to navigate this path by learning a secondary set of skills because it was part of their everyday experience growing up. They have plenty of role models, friends, family, exposure that allows them to internalize the rules of the game from within. My kids - not one of them (believe me, we talk about it a lot) - have this background. "My cousin went to community college for a year and now he works at a body shop," was as close as my newspaper class could come when they were discussing an editorial they were writing. My Dad was the first member of his working-class family from a working-class town to graduate from college. There were a lot of fears he had to overcome and cultural norms he had to learn to accomplish this feat so I know this is not about race. But no one ever looked at my Dad and projected 1000 stereotypes onto him before he could even open his mouth to speak. Race does multiply this issue in a hurry. My kids are fine in public. Everywhere we go, I'm proud to be their coach and thankful for the time we spend together. Sometimes they scare the 5h)t out of people but it's not their problem. I remind them a lot to watch their language but I have had to do that when I have taught kids of all races. They have a lot to learn about navigating their way through high school to college beyond just math, english, science. Again, I'm not sure, if we are communicating clearly, where we are in disagreement? [Edited by bebanovich on Mar 1st, 2006 at 05:45 AM]
|
|
Wed Mar 01, 2006, 05:24am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
I realize that it must look like I'm giving a pass to a coach and nailing an official so here's a worse thing that a coach has been doing for a couple of years now. A private school has taken to mumbling nasty things to my players under their breath, I'm guessing to try to make my players lose control. It's been three years now and the things being said are mysteriously similar (from my players' reports) and always flirt with race without being totally overt. The coach has been the common denomonator. This continues despite the fact that it has never worked and actually backfired last year when one of my players was better at it and one of their players shoved him. [Edited by bebanovich on Mar 1st, 2006 at 05:51 AM]
|
|
Wed Mar 01, 2006, 08:18am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
[/B][/QUOTE]It "backfired"? "One of my players was better at it"? I'll bet you're real proud of that one. Yo, bebanovich, guess what lofty humanist made the following statements in the opening post of this thread? 1: "Coaches, scorers and officials are there to take care of the rules and the players job is to play and compete, not talk or fight." 2) "I just think that if you have any question about whether to be lenient with any any potentially incendiary incident, comment, etc., even if it's late in the game and the intent sounds innocent enough, it is worth taking into account that there are two (or more) different cultures out there on the receiving end." 3) "Please don't let an intentional foul or trash talking go unless you really feel you have a grasp for how all parties are responding". It sure doesn't sound to me that your lofty ideals have got through to your kids if one of them engaged in trash talking and nearly started a fight. Or do your lofty ideals only work one way? Do two wrongs make a right? Quit using the kids as an excuse for your own behavior. If you want to make a point to the "terrible" refs you get, hey, feel free to do so. Take your chances; it might get you a few calls down the road. That's what the whole purpose of making comments to the officials is anyway, isn't it? But please don't try to portray yourself to be something else than what you are-- just another coach who pays lip service to sportsmanship while trying to get an edge for his team by yapping at officials. Unfortunately, there's a million of 'em out there just like you, and every one of 'em is just as willing as you to rationalize away their behavior too. Feel free to tell me now how I've just misconstrued everything that you've said. That's pretty much SOP too. Unfortunately, I smelled it and called it too.
|
|
Wed Mar 01, 2006, 12:47pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
"One of my players was better at it"? I'll bet you're real proud of that one. Yo, bebanovich, guess what lofty humanist made the following statements in the opening post of this thread? 1: "Coaches, scorers and officials are there to take care of the rules and the players job is to play and compete, not talk or fight." 2) "I just think that if you have any question about whether to be lenient with any any potentially incendiary incident, comment, etc., even if it's late in the game and the intent sounds innocent enough, it is worth taking into account that there are two (or more) different cultures out there on the receiving end." 3) "Please don't let an intentional foul or trash talking go unless you really feel you have a grasp for how all parties are responding". It sure doesn't sound to me that your lofty ideals have got through to your kids if one of them engaged in trash talking and nearly started a fight. Or do your lofty ideals only work one way? Do two wrongs make a right? Quit using the kids as an excuse for your own behavior. If you want to make a point to the "terrible" refs you get, hey, feel free to do so. Take your chances; it might get you a few calls down the road. That's what the whole purpose of making comments to the officials is anyway, isn't it? But please don't try to portray yourself to be something else than what you are-- just another coach who pays lip service to sportsmanship while trying to get an edge for his team by yapping at officials. Unfortunately, there's a million of 'em out there just like you, and every one of 'em is just as willing as you to rationalize away their behavior too. Feel free to tell me now how I've just misconstrued everything that you've said. That's pretty much SOP too. Unfortunately, I smelled it and called it too. [/B][/QUOTE] OK, I'll bite and respond to one of your posts. Neither I, nor anyone besides the player who pushed, heard my player talking trash. I heard about it later from my player and I took action. I still privately find the justice of it amusing. Your judgment about me has been made so I needn't say more about this.
|
|
Wed Mar 01, 2006, 01:15pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
[/B][/QUOTE]Yup, one of your players was better at trash-talking than an opponent and almost started a brawl..... and you privately find that "amusing". You certainly can say that I've made my judgement about you. It ain't pretty either. The sad part is that there are so many people just like you that are involved in coaching these days. Great with words; not very good with actions that really mean anything though. Carry on deluding yourself.
|
|
Wed Mar 01, 2006, 01:21pm
|
|||
|
|||
__________________
9-11-01 http://www.fallenheroesfund.org/fallenheroes/index.php http://www.carydufour.com/marinemoms...llowribbon.jpg
|
|
Wed Mar 01, 2006, 01:58pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Now that you have clearly established your feelings about me, please refrain from repeated posts about my complete lack of character, ethics, honesty, etc. I think your opinion about my general lack of professional competence and general hackery have been duly established and thread-stalking is not necessary. I do not mind the occasional exchange that involves the virtual sticking-out of tongues but generally feels like a sense of humor lurks underneath - Dan_ref comes to mind here but I maybe offbase. This feels likes somethings else entirely and I think in future exchanges with each other we should both stick closely to the spirit of the topic being discussed and not look for ways to drag out a personal grudge. Judge my ideas harshly of course, but please stick to my ideas and I will extend the same to you.
|
|
Wed Mar 01, 2006, 02:58pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
bebanovich,
First of all you made a stereotype that was inaccurate and out of line. You assumed that some kids from a specific area are the only ones that are willing to fight or are willing to behave in a bad way. Those are the comments I have a problem with. Then you tried to use Bill Cosby to back that up as if Bill Cosby has any credibility with the African-American community on this issue. Ever heard of Michael Dyson (Professor and Author)? He wrote a book addressing the many issues that Cosby raised and is widely in disagreement with Cosby as well as many other African-American scholars and leaders that took Cosby on. Knowing this does not make me an expert but I am related to an individual that writes about race and teaches racial issues in her day job as a college professor. I can tell you that much of the African-American Scholar community thought Cosby was out of line much like your comments. Many of the problems that take place in the Black community are no different than any other community. We have a violent society, not just violent communities. Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
|
 |
| Bookmarks |
|
|
Linear Mode
