|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 05:10am
|
|||
|
|||
|
BACKGROUND
OK, this is a long one that I have been chewing on for about a week because I didn't know how to say it or whether to try to say it. I coach in a high school that's located in the former per capita murder capital of the country and I love teaching the game of basketball to my kids and the metaphors it offers for learning about life. There was an incident late in our last game that I felt like the officials mishandled and I definitely mishandled and I just wanted to describe my thinking here in the hopes that it might make some small difference. INCIDENT We are up about 25 in the fourth against a team whose coach believes in the "foul to stop layup" philosopy that I am not a huge fan of but, whatever. She has been getting on her guys for allowing my kids to finish inside and get 3-point play opportunities during the game. Her team is pressuring up top, we pass around and throw down low to our 5-man who is behind everyone. A little guard from the other team runs across and down the lane and grabs our 5-man hard from behind by both upper-arms and turns him sideways to prevent the layup. We are guest and the home crowd has a laugh, partly, I think, because of the obvious intentional foul and partly because of this tiny white kid grabbing this large black kid. I think just about everyone was ready to laugh it off - there was clearly no intent to start a fight, this poor kid was tired of his coach yelling at him and his teammates to stop giving up layups. He kind up turned away embarrassed and his team was laughing as were the officials. I was watching my 5-man and so was my 4-man who was behind the play and couldn't even see 5's face. The 4-man didn't hesitate, he came running over and wrapped his arms around the 5-man and started calming him down - he didn't need to see his face to know his reaction was not one of light-hearted humor. CONTEXT Teaching kids from very violent neighborhoods (I hesitate to over-generalize but I feel pretty safe here) that fighting is wrong means only that you will lack all crediblity in their eyes. Many have close family who have taught them never to back down from anyone and for good reason. It is often a much wiser decision for a kid to jump into a certain beating that to be seen as someone who backs down on the street. I teach essentially that fighting will ALWAYS lead to negative consequences at school and that basketball is competition not threat. Coaches, scorers and officials are there to take care of the rules and the player's job is to play and compete not talk or fight. I try to help them understand that every craftsman's toolbox has a hammer in it but they need a lot of other tools and can't simply look for a bigger hammer every time they acquire a new tool. They believe it but the trust comes slowly sometimes. Often kids start to feel a threat early in situations and it's not the actual physical violence we see in front of us, it's the question of when their failure to deal with the threat of physical violence starts to lead to the promise of a bigger problem down the road. BACK TO THE INCIDENT So, the official called the foul but not the intentional. I didn't know this crew at all and we had driven out into the boonies for this game. They had worked an eighth-grade game before ours and weren't even coming to the table to signal fouls, they were relaying their signals to their partner so I didn't even have a chance to have a quiet word. To debate whether he kicked it is kind of moot because I'm going to make my same plea here anyway . . . but I kicked it here. What I did was say, across the floor since he was relaying his call to his partner, "isn't that kind of the definition of intentional?" In my mind I'm thinking, "let's show the kids we're on top of it." What he's probably thinking is, "this jerk is up by 28 and he is arguing for this call?" If I had it to do over I think I would have called for a 30 to see if I could have said, "I don't need the intentional but please just warn so my players can see you warn." As long as they believe that the refs and their coach are really taking care of business we can minimize any crap. I don't know if this would have seemed annoying too, but it had to be better than just talking across the court like a moron. CLARIFICATION I am not asking for any exceptions for kids who have it rough. Keep the bar high. If my kids let loose verbally or slam a ball down please whack away and when you do you will see their replacement kneeling at the table and my player will know that he has not faced the worst part of his day yet. I just think that if you have any question about whether to be lenient with any potentially incendiary incident, comment, etc, even if it's late in a game and the intent seems innocent enough that it is worth taking into account that there may be two (or more) different cultures on the receiving end. Please don't let an intentional foul or trash talking go unless you really feel you have a grasp for how all parties are responding. Ultimately, my kids know they are the ones who have to adjust to a different culture if they want to be sucessful. I always worry when they put their faith in the system and it doesn't seem to work for them. I know this may seem like a small point but a lot of my kids are not sure it's worth it to "act more white." A lot of little rewards help. 
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 06:58am
|
|||
|
|||
|
This is an interesting topic, and I'll try to respond to it both in my coach shoes, and my official's shoes. As a coach, I feel it is one of my biggest in game responsiblities to be an advocate for my players and to be a leader during the game. In order to have any success, you have to build a trust with your team. When it comes to dealing with calls by officials, I teach my kids that I will be the only one who discusses calls with officials. However, in order for this philosophy to work, there will be times as a coach when you have to stand up for your players, particularly in the situation you describe, with a lot of kids from the inner-city. If you don't stand up for them, they'll view you as a patsy and they'll start to react themselves. On the other end, if you do this too often, as a number of coaches do, you lose credibility not only with the officials, but with your players as you've now given them the excuse to fail. My goal is for my players to feel, that "coach has my back," but when they happen to be wrong, that they recognize that, "coach would have my back if I'm right, so I must be wrong."
As an official, I'm not a part of any team that's playing, nor am I in tune with a team's inner workings. I call what I see, try to call the obvious and do my best. If the situation happened the way you described it, I, as a coach, I sympatize. As an official, who might have, and probably did, see the play differently, I would not have taken kindly to your comments, and given the situation and the context, may or may not have issued a technical foul. I'm not sure exactly what your question is here on the forum. If you're looking for a way to show up an official for the benefit of maintaining credibility in the eyes of your players and not get penalized, I say there is none. If you want us as officials to condone rationalizations for certain behavior, we won't. This is a cost-benefit decision that you have to make, and accept the consequences for: if you get a technical or even ejected for what you say/do, that's part of the decision that you made. Your primary role is as a role model for the kids that you coach, and if you feel that the only way to maintain that role in a specific situation that you have to show-up the officials, then by all means do so, but expect to be penalized accordingly, and don't come here or anywhere else and expect sympathy by rationalizing that, "the officials were so bad they made me do it." If you're looking for a better way to handle the situation, probably rather than showing up the official by shouting across the floor at his partner, call a timeout and use the timeout to question the call/get an answer, that way, at least you're not shouting across the court and you're still defending your players.
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 08:01am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
You had a 25 point lead with time running out, coach. The foul that was committed sounds like it was intentional, but certainly not flagrant. I also didn't see the foul...nor did I talk to the calling official....so I don't know whether the call was correct or not. Even if it got blown however, that is still no excuse for your player to go off with the macho stuff. If you thought your player was getting excited, why didn't you just call an immediate time-out to try and calm your player down? And then get him right off the floor after his free-throws? Don't you think that might be a better option than you trying to figure out the best way for you to b*tch at an official instead? It's not like you need that player out there when you're up 25 in the 4th, you know. If you're unable to teach your team that fighting is wrong, then I'd hate to see the day that a flagrant foul is committed against one of your players. It sounds like it would be an instant brawl. Sorry for the lack of sympathy.....but....I think that you're not giving your kids enough credit in the first place. You're trying to control them,, not teach them. Jmo.
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 09:48am
|
|||
|
|||
|
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bebanovich
[B]BACKGROUND OK, this is a long one that I have been chewing on for about a week because I didn't know how to say it or whether to try to say it. I coach in a high school that's located in the former per capita murder capital of the country and I love teaching the game of basketball to my kids and the metaphors it offers for learning about life. There was an incident late in our last game that I felt like the officials mishandled and I definitely mishandled and I just wanted to describe my thinking here in the hopes that it might make some small difference. INCIDENT We are up about 25 in the fourth against a team whose coach believes in the "foul to stop layup" philosopy that I am not a huge fan of but, whatever. She has been getting on her guys for allowing my kids to finish inside and get 3-point play opportunities during the game. Her team is pressuring up top, we pass around and throw down low to our 5-man who is behind everyone. A little guard from the other team runs across and down the lane and grabs our 5-man hard from behind by both upper-arms and turns him sideways to prevent the layup. We are guest and the home crowd has a laugh, partly, I think, because of the obvious intentional foul and partly because of this tiny white kid grabbing this large black kid. I think just about everyone was ready to laugh it off - there was clearly no intent to start a fight, this poor kid was tired of his coach yelling at him and his teammates to stop giving up layups. He kind up turned away embarrassed and his team was laughing as were the officials. I was watching my 5-man and so was my 4-man who was behind the play and couldn't even see 5's face. The 4-man didn't hesitate, he came running over and wrapped his arms around the 5-man and started calming him down - he didn't need to see his face to know his reaction was not one of light-hearted humor. Being up 25 or not what you describe seems like an intentional foul to me from me perspective. It was a non basketball play. CONTEXT Teaching kids from very violent neighborhoods (I hesitate to over-generalize but I feel pretty safe here) that fighting is wrong means only that you will lack all crediblity in their eyes. Many have close family who have taught them never to back down from anyone and for good reason. It is often a much wiser decision for a kid to jump into a certain beating that to be seen as someone who backs down on the street. I teach essentially that fighting will ALWAYS lead to negative consequences at school and that basketball is competition not threat. Coaches, scorers and officials are there to take care of the rules and the player's job is to play and compete not talk or fight. I try to help them understand that every craftsman's toolbox has a hammer in it but they need a lot of other tools and can't simply look for a bigger hammer every time they acquire a new tool. They believe it but the trust comes slowly sometimes. Often kids start to feel a threat early in situations and it's not the actual physical violence we see in front of us, it's the question of when their failure to deal with the threat of physical violence starts to lead to the promise of a bigger problem down the road. Where the kids are from has no bearing on there reaction they will have if they are fouled in the manner you describle. Continue to work with you kids about the repercussions of fighting. BACK TO THE INCIDENT What I did was say, across the floor since he was relaying his call to his partner, "isn't that kind of the definition of intentional?" In my mind I'm thinking, "let's show the kids we're on top of it." What he's probably thinking is, "this jerk is up by 28 and he is arguing for this call?" If I had it to do over I think I would have called for a 30 to see if I could have said, "I don't need the intentional but please just warn so my players can see you warn." As long as they believe that the refs and their coach are really taking care of business we can minimize any crap. I don't know if this would have seemed annoying too, but it had to be better than just talking across the court like a moron. JMO, I agree you should have called a time-out to ask you question instead of yelling across the court. You right into their hands on this one.
__________________
truerookie
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 09:48am
|
|||
|
|||
|
A thoughtful question, coach bebanovich. However, you are responsible for your players' conduct, and by yelling at the official, you are inciting your players.
When you are up by 20-something, why do you care that the foul is a common, intentional or flagrant, as long as some foul is called? A call that you disagree with is not a slap in the face. Some times good people make mistakes, and sometimes good people see things differently than you. An example of good sportsmanship at this point would make a better lesson for your players than showing up an official. As you and others have pointed out, it would be better to address the official privately during a timeout, and ask for an explanation of the call. Even better would be to realize that you don't need a more severe punishment than was given. A team with a big lead should not be so concerned with every call. As a coach you should be more concerned with the example you are setting. I deal with street kids like yours all the time, and I understand the challenges you face. For some, you may be the only male role model they interact with regularly. They will imitate you whether you want them to or not. If you are yelling at the official, they will be looking to side with you, and tensions will escalate. Next time, try saying "Good call, ref!" instead, and see if the tension is diffused. You may be surprised at how your players react.
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 11:31am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Though we, as officials, shouldn't be responsible for knowing all the inner-workings of a team's psyche, we should however, as part of our game management, know the general environment in which we are officiating. We should know that in a particular game there may be a potential for violence. [Edited by BadNewsRef on Feb 27th, 2006 at 12:49 PM]
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 12:15pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
I'm not absolving the officials from any responsibility. I'm just saying that whether the team wins by 25 or 27 is not as important as the coach sending the right message to his players.
For all we know, the officials had a different view of the foul and made the correct call. How the coach responds to the call (good or bad) goes a long way toward setting the tone of the game. IMHO, this was a good time to show that as winners, they don't have to sink to the level of the team thay were beating.
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 12:22pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
The difference between an "intentional foul" and a "common foul" is ... after an intentional foul you get the ball back. In a blow out game, this distinction is not important enough for you to be wasting your time with. I coached, and I know that nothing made me seethe more than feeling like the opponents' physical play began to create the makings of unsafe conditions. I do agree that calling an foul as "intentional" or "technical" (I'm not suggesting that a T was appropriate under the circumstances described...) can have an effect on the game and settle it down. And, under the circumstances you described, would I as a coach and as an officiating colleague hope that the foul was called "intentional"? Yes. But what if it's not? This is where your leadership really kicks in. YOU have to help your kids see that whether a foul is called "intentional" or "common," or even called at all, THEY have the ability to control their response. And if they want to play on YOUR team, they'll learn that lesson. I'd be willing to guess that your player's angry reaction was formed, or forming, before s/he ever checked to see what signal the official was giving. S/he was mad at the hard contact, not at the signal the official was making after the whistle. Help your kids understand the appropriate response to hard contact and don't start them down the path that you're on, which appears to be waiting to see what an official does before you decide how you're going to handle the situation. You have a tough job, no doubt about it.
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 01:18pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
A coach shouldn't yell across the floor to bring light to himself (or herself).
Intentional fouls should be called the same way for the entire game and the officials could have blown this one. The comment about "acting white" is idiotic to say the least. Adding that at the end of your post brings an ignorance to your whole situation. It doesn't matter whether you are repeating something your players say or not, it also doesn't matter what race you are; some things aren't worth repeating.
__________________
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 01:37pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
I live in an area where I can work games with teams that come from the deepest parts of the inner city to the richest of suburbs in the country. The worst acting players and coaches in my opinion are the people from the suburban areas. I am not sure why there is so much focus on kids from violent areas as if they are incapable to behave in a proper way. Usually the inner city kids are more down to earth and are very easy to get along with.
Bottom line is there are bad kids and good kids all over the place. It is not the kidÂ’s fault where they live, it is the towns and communities that largely abandon those communities and allow things to go on in one side of town that will never be allowed to take place in the other side of town. The kids do not play apart in that reality. Many times these kids are the victims of violence and they want no part of it. That is why they are on the basketball teams and try to go to college and make a better way of life for themselves and family. Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 01:46pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Some great points for officials and coaches were made thus far- Some cheap shots were taken too.
here is the point I would like to make - by description yes it should have probably been an intentional foul call - I didn't see it - what I did see from your writing is this, - you need to teach you kids to hold them selves together better. I do not care how hard you are fouled you do not react - your get up and walk away. When I coached not one of my kids would have ver reacted that way. As far as dealing with the officials a quiet word at the bench would have been the best way. But you might have wanted to have that with the officials a long time prior to this. Since the officials had mailed this game in awhile ago based on the description given about their mechanics. Officials no matter the level have no steak in the score other than somebody wins (eventually). They do however owe it to the players and fans to not mail it in because this is where trouble starts. coaches need to work with the referees where possible - this would be one of those times. A quite word to the refs about making sure that we don't have problems with hard fouls probably would have been sufficient in this case - and prudent. I see a lot of blame to go aroud here.
__________________
The trouble with officials is they just don't care who wins.
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 02:02pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
This is an interesting discussion, let me add some personal experience here:
I coached an 8th grade girls CYO team several years ago. I had a fairly diverse team with white, black and asian players on the team. My team was fairly good and we traveled to a gym to play a team that was just awful. The school/team we were playing is majority African American and is in a African American neighborhood. We were beating the opposing team fairly badly (score of 19-1). Not only was the team just awful, the coach didn't exhibit any positive leadership at all. He was ripping the refs saying they were favoring my team because I also was a ref. He eventually got T'ed for that. The unfortunate thing is that the opposing coach's attitude carried over to his team. At the start of the 4th quarter, one of the opposing team literally body slammed one of my players to the floor. The officials (who I both knew) had done as much as they could to control the game by calling fouls on the opposing team (my team has no reason to foul, that was how bad the other team was). But the game has become a safety hazard and the game was called after my player was body slammed. If this case, no matter what the referees did, it wouldn't have mattered. If the opposing coach had more control of himself, then perhaps things wouldn't have gotten out of hand. As a sidenote, the school/progream in question has improved. The coaching/leadership is good now and the kids play good ball and keep themselves under control. I guess my point is that ultimately, no matter referees do, it's the coach that points the direction of the team. I have always found it annoying that coaches use excuses why there teams get beat or lose ("The refs cheated us", "you were biased", etc).
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 03:22pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
OK. Some great stuff here but also some assumptions made. I said only that my 4-man immediately ran to my 5-man and started calming him, but I didn't say anything about an outward reaction or my 5-man being unable to control himself. I just said that other players reacted to the situation anticipating something different than the laughing fans and officials. The player had a flash of anger in his face but he maintained composure and looked me in the eyes and talked to me between freethrows before I allowed him to continue.
My bigger point was about continuing to call the game to the end or, even better, to admonish an offending player openly. I don't want the damn ball back in a blow-out but I want my kids to see that the rules will take care of them to the end. I did admit to blowing it, but I never said I yelled at anyone. What I did do was "say across the court." It was a mistake because it is a bad way to communicate a subtle idea and saying is still a public calling-out even though it is not yelling. Not looking for sympathy or forgiveness just a plea to keep calling the game evenly for the duration even if it seems like a laugher to some. In terms of my students dealing with feeling that succeeding in school sometimes feels like sacrificing their culture and becoming more "white." I don't agree with it, but many of my students feel it so if I can't help them process it without making them feel idiotic for having the feeling then I am worthless to them.
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 04:06pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
I'm glad you're not looking for sympathy and forgiveness here. I got a feeling that you're not gonna get too much of either on this particular forum.
|
|
Mon Feb 27, 2006, 04:35pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Don't be too hard on the coach, here. It seems he's honestly looking to learn. Personally, I think he's being a little tough on himself, but the incident obviously bothered him and he's looking for a better way to handle it in the future. And it takes guts to make the "act white" comment. Being from a white, middle class, upper Midwest area - I'm in no position to argue the point - but he's not the first to talk about the attitude (Bill Cosby and other black leaders have also been talking about it for a couple of years).
Just a few thoughts - a blow out game is not a good time to pass on an intentional foul. It's not how much they win by that is the issue - it's control of the game that matters. I agree that the comment across the floor wasn't the way to handle it. I'm not even sure if any comment to the refs was needed - a quick timeout would have been good just to remind your kids to control themselves and expect the fouls - and do it loud enough so the refs hear you. Final thought - refs can't stop fouls, we can only call them after they happen. We can help by calling them and talking to the players, but preventing them is the job of the coaches and players.
|
 |
| Bookmarks |
|
|
Linear Mode
