kids from violent areas

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by JRutledge
bebanovich,

First of all you made a stereotype that was inaccurate and out of line. You assumed that some kids from a specific area are the only ones that are willing to fight or are willing to behave in a bad way. Those are the comments I have a problem with. Then you tried to use Bill Cosby to back that up as if Bill Cosby has any credibility with the African-American community on this issue. Ever heard of Michael Dyson (Professor and Author)? He wrote a book addressing the many issues that Cosby raised and is widely in disagreement with Cosby as well as many other African-American scholars and leaders that took Cosby on. Knowing this does not make me an expert but I am related to an individual that writes about race and teaches racial issues in her day job as a college professor. I can tell you that much of the African-American Scholar community thought Cosby was out of line much like your comments. Many of the problems that take place in the Black community are no different than any other community. We have a violent society, not just violent communities.

Peace

Let me start with the Bill Cosby issue because I don't want it to get lost. I definitely did not bring him up initially, nor can I ever imagine a case where I would cite him as an expert. The idea that I tried to use him to back anything up just isn't right. It did happen on this thread but it wasn't me. My main point about him was I'm glad he's concerned about the issue, he has a right to speak, but being Black does not make him an expert on this or a "Black leader."

I have also heard the name Michael Dyson but have not read his work. I plan to go take a look at his books today - thanks for the recommendation. One more point about race and expertise. . . obviously being of a majority races does put a cap on ones' credibility. I can read all the books I want and work with as many kids as I want and have as many conversations as I want but I can't replace the knowledge that comes with experience. I just wanted to make the point that people should really understand and own their ideas about race rather than find a mysteriously appointed "Black leader" like Bill Cosby to speak for them.

As far as stereotyping, it certainly wasn't my intention to imply that only kids from a certain area are capable of or willing to behave badly. I have also tried to point out repeatedly that my kids didn't and, in general don't, behave badly. I was trying to point out that sliding standards can be disheartening and insensitive to cultural differences - especially in cases like this. In can also be a bad idea when culture, class, etc. is not an issue, but that wasn't my purpose in posting.

In the course of naming the thread (something I'm pretty crappy at) and in making some generalities based on conversations and experiences with my kids I have generated and, judging from the content of a few posts, definitely encouraged stereotyping. For that I apologize.

[Edited by bebanovich on Mar 1st, 2006 at 04:01 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bebanovich
[/B]

This is kind of an ironic statement considering the only thing you really know about me are my words.

Now that you have clearly established your feelings about me, please refrain from repeated posts about my complete lack of character, ethics, honesty, etc.

This feels likes somethings else entirely and I think in future exchanges with each other we should both stick closely to the spirit of the topic being discussed and not look for ways to drag out a personal grudge.
[/B][/QUOTE] Your words are good enough for me. From them, I do kinda know you and I know what you're like. As long as you keep up your interminable and insufferable nonsense about being the new White Shadow that's here to save all the poor black kids from themselves, then don't expect a free pass from me. One kid losing his temper sureashell doesn't make it a racial trait. It makes him a teenager at a tough stage of his growing-up. Kids mature at different rates. I've seen a ton of this type of kid over the years- of every possible description imaginable too. The only thing that they had in common was that they're all individuals ,and there really is no need to stereotype any of them- no matter what color they are. Some are great kids; some are azzholes. Hopefully, the great kids stay great and the azzholes grow out of it. Unfortunately, some don't- but that ain't because of their color. It's what's inside the kid, not on the surface. Quit making excuses for your kids and give 'em a little more credit. Let 'em be themselves. Believe it or not, they might just amaze the hell outa you by the way that they do act in a tough situation.

It ain't personal with me either, bebanovich. My personal trait is that I just have a low tolerance for boolsh*t in all it's various forms.

End of my rant too.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Your words are good enough for me. From them, I do kinda know you and I know what you're like. As long as you keep up your interminable and insufferable nonsense about being the new White Shadow that's here to save all the poor black kids from themselves, then don't expect a free pass from me. One kid losing his temper sureashell doesn't make it a racial trait. It makes him a teenager at a tough stage of his growing-up. Kids mature at different rates. I've seen a ton of this type of kid over the years- of every possible description imaginable too. The only thing that they had in common was that they're all individuals ,and there really is no need to stereotype any of them- no matter what color they are. Some are great kids; some are azzholes. Hopefully, the great kids stay great and the azzholes grow out of it. Unfortunately, some don't- but that ain't because of their color. It's what's inside the kid, not on the surface. Quit making excuses for your kids and give 'em a little more credit. Let 'em be themselves. Believe it or not, they might just amaze the hell outa you by the way that they do act in a tough situation.

It ain't personal with me either, bebanovich. My personal trait is that I just have a low tolerance for boolsh*t in all it's various forms.

End of my rant too.

OK, thanks for this. I don't think I've saved anyone and I hope my kids give my a swift verbal kick if this is how I come across to them.

One problem with the above . . .
there was no temper tantrum for me to make an excuse for - for any reason.

The fact that one of my team leaders braced for the worst and the offended player had an evil thought or two but took no action except to calmly drain one freethrow assure me everything was OK and then, well, miss the second freethrow, were very positive and my point was only that, while the fans, the opponent and the officials were sharing a chuckle, my kids were not feeling like they were part of this little party.

I agree with pretty much everything else you say in your post.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bebanovich
Let me start with the Bill Cosby issue because I don't want it to get lost. I definitely did not bring him up initially, nor can I ever image a case where I would cite him as an expert. I only refered to him after repeated references in this thread because I thought people were essentially saying, "I'm white so I don't have a valid opinion but Bill Cosby is Black and he says this . . ." I just wanted people to state their own opinions and back them up and not just feel like their race or Bill Cosby's race was the main factor here.

Well the fact that I am Black and I deal with Black people on a regular basis of all classes and backgrounds might not make me an expert, but it makes me more knowledgeable than someone that only sees Black people at a sporting event or at one time of the day.

Originally posted by bebanovich
My opinion is still that his concerns are well-placed, he has a right to speak and most of his ideas are creepy. I have also heard the name Michael Dyson but have not read his work. I plan to go take a look at his books today - thanks for the recommendation. One more point about race and expertise. . . obviously being of a majority races does put a cap on ones' credibility. I can read all the books I want and work with as many kids as I want and have as many conversations as I want but I can't replace the knowledge that comes with experience. I just wanted to make the point that people should really understand and own their ideas about race rather than find a mysteriously appointed "Black leader" like Bill Cosby to speak for them.

Leaders are people ask to lead. Martin Luther King was a leader because people in the Black Southern Community asked him to lead. King was not the only voice in the Black community across the country. Remember there were other leaders like Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party that took very different points of view than King's non-violence stance. So there has never been one person that is considered "the leader." Cosby is just a celebrity that is in my opinion out of touch with what goes on in today's society because he has been far removed from the people he was so critical of.

BTW, here are some of Dyson's books so you get some idea of what he writes about.

Michael Dyson's Books

Originally posted by bebanovich
As far as stereotyping, it certainly wasn't my intention to imply that only kids from a certain area are capable of or willing to behave badly. I have also tried to point out repeatedly that my kids didn't and, in general don't, behave badly. I was trying to point out that sliding standards can be disheartening and insensitive to cultural differences - especially in cases like this. In the course of naming the thread (something I'm pretty crappy at) and in making some generalities based on conversations and experiences with my kids I have generated and definitely encourage stereotyping. For that I apologize.

Of course you said your kids did not do anything, but your post started with a comment that suggests your kids are the exception. That is what I was taking you to task about. Violence is not a cultural issue. If I am not mistaken we have had nothing but white Presidents and many of them have made decisions that caused the death of more people than a community ever has in a 4 year period. Call it what you will but violence is something a lot of people in different cultures advocate violence and engage in violence. There was a time in this country when certain groups of people could die if they whistled at the wrong color women or if they tried to vote. I do not see poor communities and the people that live in them as any different or special than the terrorism that was inflected on people of color long before Al Quada was known.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally posted by bebanovich

The kids. They smelled it, they called it. No one was mortally wounded by it, they just thought it was a little patronizing. I think high school kids are super-attuned to phoneys and patronizing. It's not so much the words but tone of voice and whether you are acknowledging them when you are saying it or just talking like they aren't there or they don't understand English.

[Edited by bebanovich on Mar 1st, 2006 at 05:51 AM]

You know your kids better than I do, but I also know kids aren't perfect judges of character or intent. They can make rash judgments just as easily, even more easily, than adults. Of course, I can only go by the words you reported and have no way of hearing tone, body language, etc.
My only point is this, one can easily find offense in virtually anything someone says if he is looking for it.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by bebanovich

I agree with pretty much everything else you say in your post.

I realized this may have come across as sarcastic. Just meant that, even though your post was based on a misunderstanding of the facts of the incident, I agree with most of your sentiments.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

You know your kids better than I do, but I also know kids aren't perfect judges of character or intent. They can make rash judgments just as easily, even more easily, than adults. Of course, I can only go by the words you reported and have no way of hearing tone, body language, etc.
My only point is this, one can easily find offense in virtually anything someone says if he is looking for it.

Agreed. But people also do reveal their low-expectations and kids often smell it from a mile. I didn't happen to think this one was a hard call and I wasn't looking to be offended by anything - it kind of smacked me in the face when I was tired and ready to drive home. Apparently my captain was smacked too.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bebanovich

I realized this may have come across as sarcastic. Just meant that, even though your post was based on a misunderstanding of the facts of the incident, I agree with most of your sentiments.

Nope, my post wasn't based on any misunderstanding of the facts on my part at all. I based my opinion entirely on what you wrote.

[Time2Ref]

I put that link to Bill Cosby's statements. OPPS!

I originally went out to google Bill Cosby to find him doing a Jello commercial. I found the "Jello" posts to be humorous. But, instead found the one I linked to........you know the rest of the story.

OPPS!

[dave30]

I don't see much difference in games between kids from whatever area they are from. I think the coaches attitude and actions are reflected by the players. When you have a coach who whines about calls and yells all the time at his kids, 99% of the time you have a team who whines and cries about calls and parents who make fools of themselves in the stands. When a kid has a good coach who understands the game and understands kids, you will normally have a respectful group of kids who play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Poor rural areas, poor inner city, rich suburbs, rich private schools, it doesn't matter. If the players have good role models in their coaches they are usually OK.

[Raymond]

Originally posted by dave30
When you have a coach who whines about calls and yells all the time at his kids, 99% of the time you have a team who whines and cries about calls and parents who make fools of themselves in the stands.

Maybe it's just my location and my perception, but by far the worst parents for riding officials are the ones from the private academies (not the private religious schools).
Must be the sense of entitlement they have from paying those exorbinant tuitions.