kids from violent areas

[mick]

Originally posted by bebanovich
INCIDENT
... A little guard from the other team runs across and down the lane and grabs our 5-man hard from behind by both upper-arms and turns him sideways to prevent the layup. We are guest and the home crowd has a laugh, partly, I think, because of the obvious intentional foul and partly because of this tiny white kid grabbing this large black kid. I think just about everyone was ready to laugh it off - there was clearly no intent to start a fight, this poor kid was tired of his coach yelling at him and his teammates to stop giving up layups. He kind up turned away embarrassed and his team was laughing as were the officials.
....

bebanovich,
Good post.
If I thought it was funny, I would have had little problem calling the intentional foul... with a smile on my face.
mick

[BayStateRef]

Game management covers such a wide path -- and while we usually use it only to discuss how officials handle coaches and players, this post is instructive that game management also includes how coaches (and even players) handle game situations.

I had several incidents this past week that reminded me of that. In a youth game the other day (6th grade boys), a team up by more than 20 was trapping and fast-breaking and running up the score. After I called a foul against the losing team, the player who was fouled shouted, "Finally." I gave him a "T." After the foul shots, the kid's coach called a time out and asked me what happened. I told him. After the game, the coach told me that behavior was not OK and that the player was benched for the rest of the game.

In another game, my partner and the home coach were getting into it over what the coach thought were poor calls -- one in particular. . My partner was a first-year official and I could see he was getting upset by this coach's behavior -- and his refusal to put that call behind him. I told my partner to move far away from the coach because I knew the coach would say something to merit a T. The coach also pleaded with me for "some help" but all he got was that he should concentrate on the coaching and we would take care of the officiating. A few days later I saw this coach at another game. He thanked me for keeping him out of trouble. I saw it as good game management all around. It was nice to know the coach saw it that way too.

[Rick82358]

Coach,
A couple of things -
I do not and I dont think anyone of the officials on this board belittles your comminment to your kids - and if we are being hard on you it is tough love I think a lot of us have taken some shots at the officials on the game for their actions too.
The disipline of your kids as far as their control is taken from your lead - and since we see these situation over and over and over and over again - it is hard for us to feel to much sympathy when you are up 25 and making comments about calls - right or wrong.
Your 4 player did the right thing and if your 5 wasn't - for just that instant - thinking of cleaning that kids clock then I appologize to you and him.

But these kids see this stuff in the NBA or street ball or even NCAA all the time and will face some body down in these situations in a 2 point game or a 25 point game, stopping that behavior falls on the coach.
But as I said in my first post, I take issue with the officials for not calling the whole game that could have prevented this whole thing -
The way you deal with officials will go a long way to how they deal with you. Talk with us, ask questions, ask for help,it does a lot more than calling out across the floor-
Good luck with your kids.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by wisref2
Don't be too hard on the coach, here. It seems he's honestly looking to learn. Personally, I think he's being a little tough on himself, but the incident obviously bothered him and he's looking for a better way to handle it in the future. And it takes guts to make the "act white" comment. Being from a white, middle class, upper Midwest area - I'm in no position to argue the point - but he's not the first to talk about the attitude (Bill Cosby and other black leaders have also been talking about it for a couple of years).

Since when did Bill Cosby become the voice of the Black community? I hope you do not think because Cosby had a TV show with a Black family that gives him some credibility that trumps those that deal with regular Black people on a day to day basis. You need to listen to many people in the Black community that disagreed with him.

In my area Thanksgiving (this season) there was a white kid from a private school that cursed out his coach and refused to come off the floor and go into the game during a tournament. In the fall out the coach resigned and the kid was only suspended for 2 games by the school. Now that sounds like attitude to me and there were no people of color involved in that story. So I am not sure this "attitude" you talk about has anything to do with some Black kids in a violent area in a specific way.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by wisref2

Just a few thoughts - a blow out game is not a good time to pass on an intentional foul. It's not how much they win by that is the issue - it's control of the game that matters.

Just another thought....

How do you know that it was an intentional foul? Because a coach said so?

[Adam]

I'm going to assume that the foul was intentional, because I've seen it before and arguing that point isn't really important to me here.
Coach, I think you did fine. Your comment was more in line with showing your kids you had their back. As a ref, if I'd passed on the intentional here, I would have let you have a gripe. I may well have had my reasons for passing on the X, but I'd fully understand why a coach would challenge my judgment there.
If you would continue, then I may have to ask you to stop. However, it sounds as if you only made the one comment. Frankly, I'm giving some leeway here.

Also, good job on teaching the kids. It sounds as if they handled themselves pretty well here. It's up to teammates half the time to calm each other down. #5 may have felt he was being ridiculed, I don't know, but the laughter may not have helped him at the time. Your #4 deserves a pat on the back for stepping up.

[Dan_ref]

Let's distill the original post down a bit.

Coach, up 28, is unhappy he didn't get an intentional foul call by some officials during an away game. Somehow race and fear are a factor - he goes out of his way to tell us he coaches a team located in a former per capita murder capital of the country and his kids have a problem with acting white, so I'm assuming he's got his hands full with a bunch of black kids he's afraid of, or should be afraid of, or maybe we should be afraid of, or whatever. Somehow Bill Cosby's involved. Jello pudding anyone?

Other than that there's no question asked, although he does imply that the intentional should have been given to reward his players. Because they are different, somehow.

I think that cover it.

[bebanovich]

Let me be clear about one thing . . . my kids did absolutely the right things in this case. The one kid who was angry absolutely kept himself under control and a teammate rushed to make sure that he did before he had a chance to do anything else. I'm sure he thought about cleaning someone's clock or even saying something but thank God for the distance our team has put between thought and action.

My comments about how my kids respond to the threat of violence were merely to point out why my kids did not think this was as funny as the fans and officials and opponents seemed to think it was, not to offer an excuse for any outburst - that I feel compelled to repeat for only one or maybe two of you DID NOT HAPPEN. The best way to respect the cultural differences that existed in this game was to call the damn game equally to the end.

Expect me to teach sportsmanship, self-control, fundamentals and the rules of the game but don't make me explain to my kids why the rules can be waived for a while and they can be left out of the joke. So far I haven't really asked anyone to buy 100% the premise the the refs booted the call but they booted it and the whole gym new it and shared a good chuckle. That's not a lesson that I want to be teaching in the van on the way back home - the rules of basketball are not supposed to be subjected to a nod-and-a-wink mentality.

I am certainly not accusing anyone here of being as horrible as the refs in this game. Nor am I accusing anyone here, or even those horrible refs, of being racist. I'm just saying that race, economics and neighborhood do create different cultural beliefs and you can't assume that everyone is reading a situation the same way.

A lot of customs of our schools, workplaces and activities are based on values and unwritten rules that have their roots in white culture - yes, it's OK to say this (unless you want me to say European or Caucasian) and yes, white people do have a culture. In some sense, not all, but many students of color have to become bi-cultural. I have to help my students and players process this all the time and try to keep them from demonizing students who hone their skills in "proper English" or ("job interview English" as my students call it). It just gets that much harder when people shift the rules around or start making exceptions.

This is probably much more than any of you wanted on an officials forum but if anyone is really interested in these issues, Dr. Lisa Delpit's, Other People's Children: Cultural Conflict in the Classroom is not a bad place to start.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Let's distill the original post down a bit.

Coach, up 28, is unhappy he didn't get an intentional foul call by some officials during an away game. Somehow race and fear are a factor - he goes out of his way to tell us he coaches a team located in a former per capita murder capital of the country and his kids have a problem with acting white, so I'm assuming he's got his hands full with a bunch of black kids he's afraid of, or should be afraid of, or maybe we should be afraid of, or whatever. Somehow Bill Cosby's involved. Jello pudding anyone?

Other than that there's no question asked, although he does imply that the intentional should have been given to reward his players. Because they are different, somehow.

I think that cover it.

Sorry you're having trouble Dan_ref. Maybe you could try sounding out the big words.

[Time2Ref]

Coach, basketball is only the tool to help these children. It is not the end to the means. You already know that. It is obvious that you are an educated person. (I'm not entirely sure that you aren't still trying to "work the refs", right here on this forum). Are you trying to win basketball games (and help your own situation) or are you trying to help these kids?


You wrote:
Ultimately, my kids know they are the ones who have to adjust to a different culture if they want to be sucessful. I always worry when they put their faith in the system and it doesn't seem to work for them. I know this may seem like a small point but a lot of my kids are not sure it's worth it to "act more white." A lot of little rewards help.

You know that you must teach these kids that life isn't as simple as "Do these things and you will live happily ever after". That's how fairy tales end, not real life. The answer to bigotism cannot not be solved on this forum. There are poor white kids too. You must teach them it is not "act more white". That is just an excuse, a cop out. When you allow them justify that remark, you are doing them a great dis-service. There are sucessful African Americans. There are Angalo-Saxons who are losers. When you let color enter into the conversation as a valid excuse, you have lost the battle. You must stop that as soon as you hear it. As you know, you don't brush it under the rug so that you can gain their trust. You stop practice, you sit down and have a discussion. You show them that they could do everything right, and still get the short end of the stick. That's life, no matter what color you are. But you must try to be sucessful. That a Black person must act "White" to become sucessful is B.U.L.L. S.H.I.T..... It's a society we live in. White people have to learn to "Act" a certain way also if they want to be sucessful. To be sucessful in Buisness, I had to act like a buiness person. The President of the company I worked for was Black. A college graduate. He taught night school part time. I am sure that he had a lot more going on than I even knew. He wasn't "ACTING". He was/is sucessfull because he set high standards for himself. Perfection cannot be obtained, but it makes an excellent goal. I could write pages, but the issue will not be solved by my ranting on and on.

I would suggest that you decide what it is you are trying to do. Once you decide if you are helping yourself or helping the kids, your solution will become clear.

The lesson is not "If you do the right things, the right things will happen to you". The lesson should be "You must try your best to succeed. It won't be easy. You will find roadblocks at every turn. It is up to you to overcome the hurdles. You only lose when you stop trying. Don't expect a secret potion, don't trust you future to a lottery ticket. Don't fight the opponet. Don't fight the officials. Fight the world, and win. You must continue to try, even when the cards are stacked against you." But, I think you already know this.

Oh yeah, what does Bill Cosby say about this matter? See for yourself.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialRe...20040702a.html

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by bebanovich

Sorry you're having trouble Dan_ref. Maybe you could try sounding out the big words.

Aww...how cute. It thinks it's insulting me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bebanovich
My comments about how my kids respond to the threat of violence were merely to point out why my kids did not think this was as funny as the fans and officials and opponents seemed to think it was, not to offer an excuse for any outburst - that I feel compelled to repeat for only one or maybe two of you DID NOT HAPPEN. The best way to respect the cultural differences that existed in this game was to call the damn game equally to the end.

Expect me to teach sportsmanship, self-control, fundamentals and the rules of the game but don't make me explain to my kids why the rules can be waived for a while and they can be left out of the joke. So far I haven't really asked anyone to buy 100% the premise the the refs booted the call but they booted it and the whole gym new it and shared a good chuckle. That's not a lesson that I want to be teaching in the van on the way back home - the rules of basketball are not supposed to be subjected to a nod-and-a-wink mentality.

I am certainly not accusing anyone here of being as horrible as the refs in this game. Nor am I accusing anyone here, or even those horrible refs, of being racist. I'm just saying that race, economics and neighborhood do create different cultural beliefs and you can't assume that everyone is reading a situation the same way.

A lot of customs of our schools, workplaces and activities are based on values and unwritten rules that have their roots in white culture - yes, it's OK to say this (unless you want me to say European or Caucasian) and yes, white people do have a culture. In some sense, not all, but many students of color have to become bi-cultural. I have to help my students and players process this all the time and try to keep them from demonizing students who hone their skills in "proper English" or ("job interview English" as my students call it). It just gets that much harder when people shift the rules around or start making exceptions.

Why do you keep asking your questions if you don't like or agree with any of the answers that you get? As far as I can tell, you're just wasting everybody's time, including your own. You're trying to lay your own shortcomings as a coach onto the officials, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, we expect you to teach sportsmanship. That's supposed to be part of a coach's job. You're not doing that when you go looking for reasons to blame things on the officials. One missed freaking call and you announce to the world that they're "horrible officials" and you just got to show your kids that you've got their backs by complaining. Now, what's wrong with that picture.

That's my opinion! Feel free to ignore it or dismiss it. Your choice.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Why do you keep asking your questions if you don't like or agree with any of the answers that you get? As far as I can tell, you're just wasting everybody's time, including your own. You're trying to lay your own shortcomings as a coach onto the officials, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, we expect you to teach sportsmanship. That's supposed to be part of a coach's job. You're not doing that when you go looking for reasons to blame things on the officials. One missed freaking call and you announce to the world that they're "horrible officials" and you just got to show your kids that you've got their backs by complaining. Now, what's wrong with that picture.

That's my opinion! Feel free to ignore it or dismiss it. Your choice.

Calm down JR.

Have some jello pudding.

[JRutledge]

Black people have been behaving differently around white people and differently around their own people for years now. It is not anything Black people have not been doing for years. I know as a Black official, my fellow Black officials have conversations we do not have at our association meetings or when working with white officials. Maybe the coach needs not to be coaching these kids if he does not at least know such a basic thing as how to behave in public or professional situations.

Peace

[basketballen]

Coach bebonovich,

I began reading this post with a sneaking thought that you would get your feelings hurt and would lash out. You've done it before on this forum. I think you took a cheap shot at Dan_ref. IMO, he did a fine job of pointing out that your question was vague if it was a question at all.

Posters have concurred with your own conclusion that you could have handled this OP with a time out rather than *talk* across the floor at the *horrible* refs. Your kids would have learned something too. Go figure.

I agree with Mick and Snagwells. I wasn't there but I've handled similar situations by either calling a common and talking to the players or calling the X and talking to the players. I've done both. The choice has depended on my feel for that particular game. In this sitch I probably would have gone the common route and given you some leeway.

This has now moved toward something else. I'm thinking it's really what you're after. You seem to like to stir things up. If so, fine. But say so.

I've read Delpit's book, among others, (Kozol and Rose come to mind) and I continue to read editorials and columns on the cultural divide issue. Most recently a column by the publisher of Black Enterprise that spoke directly to the problem of demonizing young black men for being good students. Furthermore, I teach in a white suburban High School that busses kids in from a lower socioeconomic culture and have first hand experience in the cultural devide. Ours is probably the most divers of the 22 public high schools in our city. Having said all of that I can assure you that I'm not qualified to comment on this issue. I'm a white, middle aged ref!

I think you should stick to coaching basketball. Leave the social commentary to the authentic social commentaters.

And leave the officiating to the officials.

Thanks for working with kids.

Bruce






[Edited by basketballen on Feb 27th, 2006 at 11:33 PM]