Go ahead, shame me....

[rainmaker]

At this level, contact should always be called more tightly. Kids can't "play through", and especially girls this age. They just haven't learned those skills yet. But at any age, if a girl goes for a lay-up, and gets knocked over, that's always gotta be a foul. It comes under the category of "protect the shooter". If the patched ref wasn't new lead, he should have closed hard, and come up with a late whistle.

Then, when the opponent gets the ball and heads back down court, play has got to stop with an injured player on the floor. At this age level, and in the first half, there's no way play should continue.

I don't know abuot called the ref, "Stripes". I don't think I"d like it, but not sure I'd T for it. But you should definitely have said something about the calls at half-time. "Ref, sorry I was disrespectful. Listen, are you going to continue letting them play? If so, we're going to forfeit, because we weren't prepared for this amount of contact." Or, go directly to the site manager, and ask about cracking down.

Mead -- Did your opponent in that game have any complaints? Also, who won?

[Man In Blue]

Once you have crossed the magical line of earning a T you are done talking in any rational manner with the official. In my judgement, trying to talk with him at a time out, etc is done after the T.

You said the Ref was patched that gave you the T. That gives him the experence to know you crossed the line. There is no place in the rule book that says you have to tell the offender why the T was called. It was unsportsman like conduct. Period. Calling him stripes might have been the easy way or sarcastic way to tell you the final straw. It might not have been the right way but I am sure you earned it. I am willing to bet at least you were out of the coaching box/ on the court while having this discussion.

No one knows where the line is with each official, but we all know when we have crossed it. Chalk it up to youth sports and take everyone out for pizza when they stop bleeding.

[Edited by Man In Blue on Feb 13th, 2006 at 12:32 PM]

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by bgtg19
I'm disappointed in you, Imeadski. Re-read Time2Ref for a thoughtful response which pretty well captures my thoughts. The less thoughtful and straight-forward response is:

The play was not as bad/violent as you are describing; recognize your own bias in the matter. You deserved the T.

I think you aren't getting my position on this. First, as a registered official, I was somewhat embarassed to get a T. Secondly, the play was VERY rough, enough for two of my players to get bloody mouths and another to have an eye watering and red she couldn't see clearly out of it for over 15 minutes. As far as advantage goes, this was 11 and 12 year old girls playing in a FRIENDSHIP tournament. If this was a JV or Varsity tilt, I could understand not stopping play. And, as a coach and ref, I have little bias in either direction. I understand both sides, which is why I asked (maybe not so directly) when one takes off their reffing veneer (dont argue calls, overlook perceived mistakes, etc.) and take up the cause for my players that were ending up on the floor with bloody lips. And, by the way, I never said I didn't deserve the T, I was just surprised he called one because I called him stripes. When I asked why he T'd me I thought it would because of my initial reaction to the no call and then the non-stoppage of play in a weekend friendship tournament for girls.

[Man In Blue]

Let's say the foul was called on the breakaway. Do you think the elbow wouldn't have caused the bloody mouth? Or the game slowed down and became less physical?

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Man In Blue
Once you have crossed the magical line of earning a T you are done talking in any rational manner with the official. In my judgement, trying to talk with him at a time out, etc is done after the T.

You said the Ref was patched that gave you the T. That gives him the experence to know you crossed the line. There is no place in the rule book that says you have to tell the offender why the T was called. It was unsportsman like conduct. Period. Calling him stripes might have been the easy way or sarcastic way to tell you the final straw. It might not been the right way but I am sure you earned it. I am willing to be at least you were out of the coaching box/ on the court while having this discussion.

Final straw? This happened 3 minutes into the game. Nary a word was said before the call. And, I was not out of the coaching box when i asked him why he T'd me, I signaled him over to the bench. Are some of these surly responses because you all think I am a coach only and therefore OPPOSED to refs? And, a patch alone doesn't give anyone the experience to know when someone has crossed the line. Time reffing with a patch does. And, is it your rule that after a T a coach cannot talk with you anymore? That the coach has earned the right to be ignored the balance of the game?

[Man In Blue]

Yes- grab the seat belt and hold on.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Man In Blue
Let's say the foul was called on the breakaway. Do you think the elbow wouldn't have caused the bloody mouth? Or the game slowed down and became less physical?

Is that how you rationalize away a missed call? And, the answer could be yes, maybe it would have slowed down the aggressive play. I do know one thing: not calling the play didn't help deter future aggressive play! The girl who got elbowed in the mouth was the TALLEST GIRL on the court. How does one get an elbow up that high away from the ball? Do I believe the girl did it on purpose...of course not. But aggressive play begets aggressive play. Other than letting some pretty heavy contact go, the refs called a square game.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Man In Blue
Yes- grab the seat belt and hold on.

sorry, I don't see it your way. I don't see my job as adversarial to the coaches (the coaches may see it differently). When I T a coach up, they may still have my ear, they still have a team to coach and I have a game to manage. I am not saying you have one, but the Big Egoed refs in our area are some of our worst officials. They are easy to spot and it is clear they feel the game is as much about them than the teams.

[Rich]

Originally posted by lmeadski

I think you aren't getting my position on this. First, as a registered official, I was somewhat embarassed to get a T. Secondly, the play was VERY rough, enough for two of my players to get bloody mouths and another to have an eye watering and red she couldn't see clearly out of it for over 15 minutes. As far as advantage goes, this was 11 and 12 year old girls playing in a FRIENDSHIP tournament. If this was a JV or Varsity tilt, I could understand not stopping play. And, as a coach and ref, I have little bias in either direction. I understand both sides, which is why I asked (maybe not so directly) when one takes off their reffing veneer (dont argue calls, overlook perceived mistakes, etc.) and take up the cause for my players that were ending up on the floor with bloody lips. And, by the way, I never said I didn't deserve the T, I was just surprised he called one because I called him stripes. When I asked why he T'd me I thought it would because of my initial reaction to the no call and then the non-stoppage of play in a weekend friendship tournament for girls.

Oh, nonsense. Friendship tournament, my backside. If girls are getting drilled the way you are saying, what's FRIENDLY about it?

How long have you been officiating anyway? Even the best miss a call like this once in a while. Nothing annoys officials more than an injured player and a coach wanting our ear rather than tending to the player.

And Juulie, I agree with you regarding contact at this level. But I'm still judging advantage/disadvantage on just about every bit of contact. And it drives parents and coaches NUTS at this level. But I'm not there to lead a parade to the free throw line, I'm there to officiate the game.

[rockyroad]

lmeadski - don't worry about the preaching going on. Don't know wether you "desreved" the T or not - that's up to the ref calling the game. My initial thought is that he realized they screwed up and the T was the best way to "get out of the situation"...stop worrying about it and move on. I coach HS football, and I picked up a 15 yard Unsportmanlike Conduct flag this last season - hated it, but at the time my players needed to know that we had their backs - it happens. Move on, coach the kids for the next game, and teach them to play thru the garbage.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by rainmaker
At this level, contact should always be called more tightly. Kids can't "play through", and especially girls this age. They just haven't learned those skills yet. But at any age, if a girl goes for a lay-up, and gets knocked over, that's always gotta be a foul. It comes under the category of "protect the shooter". If the patched ref wasn't new lead, he should have closed hard, and come up with a late whistle.

Then, when the opponent gets the ball and heads back down court, play has got to stop with an injured player on the floor. At this age level, and in the first half, there's no way play should continue.

I don't know abuot called the ref, "Stripes". I don't think I"d like it, but not sure I'd T for it. But you should definitely have said something about the calls at half-time. "Ref, sorry I was disrespectful. Listen, are you going to continue letting them play? If so, we're going to forfeit, because we weren't prepared for this amount of contact." Or, go directly to the site manager, and ask about cracking down.

Mead -- Did your opponent in that game have any complaints? Also, who won?

I never did hear them complain except for a few missed traveling calls (the refs let a few close ones go, called the obvious). We ended up winning in overtime. And, having thought about it, I agree I should have gone and spoke to him at the half. But, if he were Man in Blue, I guess he would walk away. Regardless, the last part of the second half was much cleaner because, guess why, we were in the bonus.

[Edited by lmeadski on Feb 13th, 2006 at 01:14 PM]

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Oh, nonsense. Friendship tournament, my backside. If girls are getting drilled the way you are saying, what's FRIENDLY about it?

How long have you been officiating anyway? Even the best miss a call like this once in a while. Nothing annoys officials more than an injured player and a coach wanting our ear rather than tending to the player.

And Juulie, I agree with you regarding contact at this level. But I'm still judging advantage/disadvantage on just about every bit of contact. And it drives parents and coaches NUTS at this level. But I'm not there to lead a parade to the free throw line, I'm there to officiate the game.

Friendship tournaments are called so because there are no tournament winners. We are there to play 3 guaranteed games and to build team skill. I have been officiating one year, coaching for 15, and fully expect calls to be missed. My assistant coach tended to the girl, who, happened to be his daughter.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by rockyroad
lmeadski - don't worry about the preaching going on.

but at the time my players needed to know that we had their backs - it happens. Move on, coach the kids for the next game, and teach them to play thru the garbage.

Exactly. Thanks.

[Man In Blue]

As with ALL coaches who post here... You did nothing wrong and the official did everything wrong. It's not your right to have the officials "ear". Coach your kids and play the game. Whining about calls and who to watch doesn't make the game better.

Infact our state association just sent out year end "reminders". The most important was that official observers are seeing officials spending too much time talking to coaches during live ball time. Coaches coach and officials officiate. When did working the officials become the way to stand up for your players?

Yes there needs to be communication between coaches and officials. But I don't want coaches coming to me during time outs and at half time telling me what I have missed or need to watch.

Your behavior needs to be a model of sportsmanship for your players, parents and fans. Your post from the begining doesn't show that.

[rockyroad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Man In Blue
As with ALL coaches who post here... You did nothing wrong and the official did everything wrong. It's not your right to have the officials "ear". Coach your kids and play the game. Whining about calls and who to watch doesn't make the game better. [Quote]

And neither does having officials who think they are bigger than the game and that all coaches do is whine...

[Quote] [i]Yes there needs to be communication between coaches and officials. But I don't want coaches coming to me during time outs and at half time telling me what I have missed or need to watch.[/B] [Quote]

Then you sure as hell better never miss anything...

[i]Your behavior needs to be a model of sportsmanship for your players, parents and fans. Your post from the begining doesn't show that. [/B]

And your posts on this thread show that you are quick to judge, but don't really bother to read what the original poster was getting at...

[Edited by rockyroad on Feb 13th, 2006 at 02:18 PM]