Go ahead, shame me....

[Rich]

Originally posted by lmeadski

Friendship tournaments are called so because there are no tournament winners. We are there to play 3 guaranteed games and to build team skill. I have been officiating one year, coaching for 15, and fully expect calls to be missed. My assistant coach tended to the girl, who, happened to be his daughter.

And that freed you up to go and complain to the referee? I wouldn't care for that myself. I would've told you to tend to your player and you would've risked getting whacked if you didn't comply. Even with Dad tending to the girl, you are still giving the impression that complaining to the referees takes priority over seeing if you player is OK.

Sorry, but I know that personally that after officiating one year I simply "didn't know what I didn't know." Have a patch means nothing -- in most states you get "the patch" after sending money to the state and submitting an open book test.

Consider the officials working your game. They are possibly either (1) inexperienced or (2) not terribly good. Getting on them doesn't help because they likely don't know how to talk to coaches without getting defensive. Giving you a technical for you calling them stripes is ridiculous, although calling a referee "Stripes" is equally ridiculous. Didn't you get their names before the game started? If you didn't, there's a better way to address them.

[ditttoo]

Let's pretend, just for the fun of it, that Coach is correct and the refs screwed up. Again, this is just pretending. Now if the refs just flat blew it and missed the call, the coaches initial comments begin to make some sense; surely there is always room to improve the political correctness, but realistically, the comments are understandable in the context of the refs blowing the call.

Maybe a "coach, looks like there was some contact (hello - ain't it obvious) and we missed it. Let's get the player the attention they need and we'll work harder (which, hello, should be obvious)".

Just because we miss it doesn't put more restrictions on the coaches. Short of profanity, sounds to me like the refs needed a bit of "refocus motivation" at that point. Sure, the motivation needs to be constructive rather than ranting, but if the motivation takes the form of a rant, we need to understand we probably "earned" that one and "hear" the true message - get it together!!

[JCrow]

Mr. Stripes, Sir?


This conversation reminds me about the debate over Bigfoot? I believe in #1 Bigfoot, #2 Bad Coaches and #3 Bad Refs. Truthfully, I've seen more of #2 than anything else but I see a #3 about once a year and in a Youth Game....it's real bad news. You can't have 12 year olds bouncing off the hardwood with no whistles and not expect the game to turn into chaos.

Granted.....the "Stripes" greeting was a calculated gamble!

This weekend, I did a 5-6 YBL Game with my usual partner, the League Admin. Smooth game. Then he got tied up and I did the next one with a JV Girl Player that plays in our 9-12 League. She did a great job. Smooth game. They both split and I'm doing the 7-8 alone. I'm too slow and a kid turns and runs into me when I'm in the Trail-Trail Position. A wise$%# parent yells,

"Nice PICK, Ref."

I removed my whistle and replied, "Maybe if we had a few more volunteers instead of "observers" that wouldn't happen."

Two weeks ago, I had to physically restrain a 4-5 Coach from slugging the losing Coach! These guys got a Sumo Contest after a comment the losing Coach made in the Handshake Line. It was all I could do to hold the Winning Coach back.

On Saturday, I see the Winning Coach. I (dumbly) was kind of expecting an apology? The guy walks by me without saying anything. I, like Imedeski, can't hold back.

I said, "You know...I saved you a ton of money two weeks ago."

The Coach says, "How's that?"

I said, "Over the Lawsuit and Legal Expenses if you hit the other Coach."

End result.........the Winning Coach reported me to the League Admin!

(I know, Man in Blue......as well he should have! As well he should have.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by lmeadski
[/B]

Secondly, the play was VERY rough, enough for two of my players to get bloody mouths and another to have an eye watering and red she couldn't see clearly out of it for over 15 minutes.

As far as advantage goes, this was 11 and 12 year old girls playing in a FRIENDSHIP tournament.
[/B][/QUOTE]Rough play does not equate into illegal play. Rule book sez so-- rule-4-27:

- SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and does not constitute a foul.
ART.1...the mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.
ART.2...Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which might result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

Those are the guidelines laid out by the FED. It always has been, and always will be, a judgement call by the official whether illegal contact has occurred. In this case, there also may be additional factors- (1)young girls playing the game who haven't yet developed the necessary skills to play the game at a fluid level- and (2)maybe a newer ref officiating that hasn't really had the experience yet to develop the judgment necessary to recognize the difference between illegal contact and inadvertant contact. Of course, in #2, the other alternative is that the official had developed that skill, and his judgment was OK.

I don't know who is right, which is why I haven't commented. Unless I can actually see the play myself, imeadski, I don't think that I'm qualified to say who has the right take on this- you or the official. I do know that that I've seen all kinds of m/s-aged games where the overall level of physical contact was greater than most high school games, and the reason for that was simply a lack of skill on the players' part

[Man In Blue]

Look a simple point. You post on an official's site that the officiating sucked in your grade school game. You give half the story that favors your point of view and we are all supposed to tell you that your a big man because you stood up for your players?

Next time you see that ref who called the T (that wasn't warranted) give him the address here. Then he can tell us how you were on him before the game started. How your parents yelled "That's 3 seconds" or "TRAVEL!" "How could you miss that?" "Are you going to call something" "They're reaching in" "That's over the back" or everyones favorite "Call it both ways".

[bgtg19]

Imeadski, I'm not disappointed in you because I think you're only-a-coach-who-comes-to-this-forum-looking-for-validation-and-whines kind of a guy. I said I was disappointed because I know that you are an official. An official should know better. I am not disappointed that you shared your story. I am disappointed that an official has that perspective to share.

I believe that most coaches are honest-to-goodness good people. I appreciate that they/you are taking the time to work with young people. I value the contributions they/you are making to society. I really do. But one of the requirements of being a "good" coach is understanding that you have a perspective and view on things that *changes* when you have a rooting interest. It just is so. I know because I used to coach a few years back. We remember all the missed travels on the other team but we don't remember the missed travels on our team. We remember the elbow that our player catches on the chin, but we don't jump up and holler at the official: "I can't believe that you're not going to call that! Did you see that? My player accidentally caught that player with her elbow. You've got to put a stop to all this nonsense because somebody is going to get hurt even though I know that my uncoordinated-and-still-growing-into-her-body center has not a single malicious bone in her body." We just don't say those things.

It's possible that the official kicked the call. It's also possible that the defensive player hustled back and that your player initiated the contact -- yes, the very contact that hurt her -- and the official decided not to bail her out.

Since a person who officiates knows that they want the benefit of the doubt when they walk into a gym because they have no stake in the outcome of the game, I'd just like to see us give those people (who, sometimes happen to be us!) the benefit of the doubt.

I *am* sorry that your player got hurt. I hope she's O.K.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

And that freed you up to go and complain to the referee? I wouldn't care for that myself. I would've told you to tend to your player and you would've risked getting whacked if you didn't comply. Even with Dad tending to the girl, you are still giving the impression that complaining to the referees takes priority over seeing if you player is OK.

Sorry, but I know that personally that after officiating one year I simply "didn't know what I didn't know." Have a patch means nothing -- in most states you get "the patch" after sending money to the state and submitting an open book test.

Consider the officials working your game. They are possibly either (1) inexperienced or (2) not terribly good. Getting on them doesn't help because they likely don't know how to talk to coaches without getting defensive. Giving you a technical for you calling them stripes is ridiculous, although calling a referee "Stripes" is equally ridiculous. Didn't you get their names before the game started? If you didn't, there's a better way to address them.

Your Point: after one year maybe I dont know what i dont know. My reply: Correct. Isn't that why we come here, to learn what we dont know?

Your Point: consider officials working your game. I believe #1 was possibly true (the female ref was 22, the patch couldn't have been more than 25). Can't comment on #2, only seen them do one game, and, this incident happened 3 minutes into the game.

I could not get the names before we started. They rotate officials to various courts throughout the day. Between games there is a 2 minute warmup. Many times the refs dont hit the court until tip-off. Having a name would have certainly been helpful. Why did I call him stripes?: Well, its the name of our State Officials Guide that comes out every year. I thought it to be the equivalent of calling a baseball ump "blue," which I've done regularly as a youth baseball coach (and, never got run off the field for it...).

Tending to my player: Well, I couldn't run out onto the court as the play continued. As soon as the whistle blew, my asst ran to check on his daughter. I walked out to her and her dad to see how she was (hands over her right side of face, now walking towards bench). I met them just beyond half court, she takes her hands down, they eye has tears streaming out of it and is as red as if she rubbed salsa in it (I know, i've done it!). Her face is also beat red, but I assumed from a combo of the contact and crying. I then walk her to the bench with her dad (of course, time is out, charged to me by the way, refs wouldn't take one on them even though I asked), I returned to the sidelines, stand in the coaching box, then addressed him as stripes (ball not yet in play, we were working on sending in our substitute). Whack!

The patch in this state is earned via 2 open book tests and $35 (dollar amount may be a bit off).

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Secondly, the play was VERY rough, enough for two of my players to get bloody mouths and another to have an eye watering and red she couldn't see clearly out of it for over 15 minutes.

As far as advantage goes, this was 11 and 12 year old girls playing in a FRIENDSHIP tournament.
[/B]

Rough play does not equate into illegal play. Rule book sez so-- rule-4-27:

- SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and does not constitute a foul.
ART.1...the mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.
ART.2...Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which might result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

Those are the guidelines laid out by the FED. It always has been, and always will be, a judgement call by the official whether illegal contact has occurred. In this case, there also may be additional factors- (1)young girls playing the game who haven't yet developed the necessary skills to play the game at a fluid level- and (2)maybe a newer ref officiating that hasn't really had the experience yet to develop the judgment necessary to recognize the difference between illegal contact and inadvertant contact. Of course, in #2, the other alternative is that the official had developed that skill, and his judgment was OK.

I don't know who is right, which is why I haven't commented. Unless I can actually see the play myself, imeadski, I don't think that I'm qualified to say who has the right take on this- you or the official. I do know that that I've seen all kinds of m/s-aged games where the overall level of physical contact was greater than most high school games, and the reason for that was simply a lack of skill on the players' part [/B][/QUOTE]

JR, not looking for right or wrong. I am not looking for an indictment of the ref. I am not looking for anyone to say I was right or wrong. If you look at the post, my question was: when does a ref, who is first a dad and then a coach, take off his ref's shirt and put on his coach's shirt in a situation like this. I am sure if this was posted in a coach's forum, the reply would be coach's shirt first. Most of the replies here have been ref's shirt first (not to my surprise or dismay). I was also wearing another shirt: father and protector of the girls entrusted to me by their parents. The irony of the situation is what I wanted to share. And, with some of the replies (Man in Blue and his replies) it is not hard to see why a wall exists between some in the coaching/player and reffing communities.

[mick]

Originally posted by lmeadski
The patch in this state is earned via 2 open book tests and $35 (dollar amount may be a bit off).

Geez! I think I also had to send in a "Wheaties" box top.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by Man In Blue
Look a simple point. You post on an official's site that the officiating sucked in your grade school game. You give half the story that favors your point of view and we are all supposed to tell you that your a big man because you stood up for your players?

Next time you see that ref who called the T (that wasn't warranted) give him the address here. Then he can tell us how you were on him before the game started. How your parents yelled "That's 3 seconds" or "TRAVEL!" "How could you miss that?" "Are you going to call something" "They're reaching in" "That's over the back" or everyones favorite "Call it both ways".

I never said the refs sucked, and I certainly don't need or am looking for validation from the likes of you regarding my manlihood. Regardless, thank you for your input. I will ponder it closely as I think further about this situation.

[lmeadski]

Originally posted by mick

Geez! I think I also had to send in a "Wheaties" box top.

You forgot the 10 Campbell Soup labels. Aren't you from the UP? Oatmeal Queen was telling me how much she thinks of you.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by lmeadski

I never said the refs sucked, and I certainly don't need or am looking for validation from the likes of you regarding my manlihood. Regardless, thank you for your input. I will ponder it closely as I think further about this situation.

Like I said before, ignore the preaching...do I think it was "good" that you got a T - nope. Do I think it is realistic to expect the best refs in a U-12 game - nope. Do I think any coach deserves a T for calling an official Stripes - nope. Do I believe that there are times when a coach needs to stand up for his players - yep. And when I officiate, I fully expect a coach to be an active advocate for his/her players...that doesn't mean they get to take potshots at my crew all night - but when someone is down and hurt, there's probably gonna be some questions that I need to be able to answer...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by lmeadski

So shame on me for calling him stripes (was that truly disrespectful?) and getting lit up (true or false)? And, at what point would this community feel I needed to step up to protect my players' best interest and get into the ref's soup (In a side bar, I calmly approached him at the next dead ball, expressed my concern about the lack of calls with rough play, and he offers: I didn't see it, turns and walks away)?

After reading through the thread I'll add my $.02:

These 11 year old games are usually brutal - players, fans & coaches are generally out of control and the officials generally don't have enough experience to know how to handle it. As you've written your story here it sounds like too much was being let go. BUT...as others have said I think there's an entirely different side of this story waiting to be told by the officials. At some point if the game was truly getting too rough you should have just gone & quietly spoken to the other coach about it, and then tournament staff if the coach didn't agree to help calm things down. That option probably had much more potential for success than getting "into the ref's soup", whatever that means.

[mick]

Originally posted by lmeadski

You forgot the 10 Campbell Soup labels. Aren't you from the UP? Oatmeal Queen was telling me how much she thinks of you.

YU.P.
And she's a nice person.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
[/B]

Oatmeal Queen was telling me how much she thinks of you. [/B][/QUOTE]

YU.P.
And she's a nice person. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's........nice.