coaches "working" officials

[PGCougar]

Originally posted by JCrow
... It's just that I don't see the subject of pre-calculated verbage in terms of increasing the satisfaction of winning.

... There are times when a Coach has to speak up.

... But that stuff is on specific points of the Rules that are actually happening during a game. It's sincere and spontaneous.

Very well said. I was trying to get the same point across but didn't say it nearly as well as you.

How about sharing some of those meds?

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by JCrow
Bebanovich,

Unfortunately, due to certain character defects in my personality that the medications, professionals and my wife have been unable to correct.....I can be sarcastic and a-holey. It's easy being a Knight of the Keyboard. I'm working on it.

The very fact that you are out there working with kids makes you a good guy. None of us are perfect. Trust me, I appreciate the difficulty in Coaching. And I'll admit it...I HATE LOSING.

It's just that I don't see the subject of pre-calculated verbage in terms of increasing the satisfaction of winning.

Unfortunately, due to my character defects, I am unable to acknowledge any character defects. But that Knight of the Keyboard thing sounds like one I might look into if I decide to acquire any character defects. It must be difficult to type with all the chainmail on.

I think I have left the impression that I create a Bill Walsh-type script and I have the first 15 complaints/compliments written out on a laminated sheet of paper. I was really sharing my ideas that have evolved mainly over my last 3 years of coaching, about being selective and trying to support our particular system.

Let me try to give an example from last year as briefly as I can (which, as we've seen isn't very brief - but that's not a character flaw, just a charming quirk) . . . we currently use a Grinnell-type system based on pressing constantly, subbing a fresh 5 approximately every minute, running like crazy, trading layups for steal-attempts or 3's depending on who you ask and wearing out the opponent. That's a bad summary but useful for the example.

We played a team with horrible sportsmanship and their fans (even the parents) started to feed off of it. My kids were getting irritated and the crew (obviously inexperienced) were clearly nervous. Their solution? One official blew the whistle and admonished my boys to slow down. Did I hear it right? I turned to one of my bench guys and asked, "did he just warn us to slow down?"

The first reaction that went through my head was to yell, "where in the rule book do I find the speed limit" but it feels like I would be throwing an anvil to a drowning crew. That is calculating, I guess, but the fact that I filter out my first emotional reaction doesn't make it cynical to my way of thinking. I'm pissed but I don't know what to do. A little later, a player for the other team flings a ball in anger and it hits one of my kids. No 'T' but a warning. I got nothing, "A warning?! That can't be a warning, you have to T that!"

I now have 2 things on my agenda - protecting our pace and helping keep a lid on this thing, but I don't really know exactly what I'm going to do about it. The other team's bench has been joining the fans in yelling during our freethrows and I get an idea. The opponent with the horrible sportsmanship is a very devout Christian school (that has since started cleaning up its act after multiple complaints in all sports). Our center shoots the first of two freethrows and, sure enough, their bench yells on the release. I jump off the bench and take two steps on the court (very secure that if hucking a ball in anger and hitting an opponent is not a T then I can take a little stroll) and yell pretty loudly, "their fans can be as un-Christian as they want to be, but their bench cannot yell and disrupt our freethrows. It's un-sportsmanlike and it needs to be a T." I saw their coach immediately talking to his players and their fans rode me for a while but they actually were shamed into showing a little more class. At the next break I told me kids to ignore the ref's warning and run like hell, which they did. My perspective was that the opposing players and fans were the problem and not the pace, but I know that when we are running like crazy and subbing every minute we can contribute to a feeling of chaos to anyone who hasn't experienced it before. To our players and fans it's familiar and comfortable. I just wanted to shift the focus off my kids so we could press and run. I also thought I could help control the opposing bench and maybe the fans.

I did have an agenda and I did calculate somewhat but I'm not following a script. With our system my number one priority is always pace and I just don't want to be asking, working, praying, etc for calls that do anything to slow the game and let the opponent (especially the big guys) rest. In terms of rules of thumb for deciding what to say and when - I once heard that only air-traffic controllers make more decisions in a day than teachers so I don't think I know how NOT to form a sentence on-the-fly anymore without taking at least 3 factors into account. My first year of teaching, it took me about 30 seconds to utter each sentence because I had to make sure my brain had filtered out all of the cussing and inappropriate humor.

Thanks for another thoughtful exchange. Are we due for a sarcastic one next time?

P.S. Probably a good post to mention that the level of officiating jumped back up this year. A neighboring athletic director told me that the officials' organization described here was meeting resistance from schools when they tried to negotiate big all-sport contracts and that competition was moving in. He thinks they are responding to market pressure. Second or third-hand info, for what it's worth.

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 10th, 2006 at 04:24 PM]

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by PGCougar
Where I think we veer into different directions is the notion that you can build a predictable strategy based entirely on this approach. It's really the substance of whatever you're going to discuss with an official that will determine whether or not you might gain a sympathetic ear. Substance, not the form or manner. And so there's no real way, other than to be honest and earnest with the officials in the flow of the game. I think that some concepts, like ratcheting up the pressure on an inexperienced ref or backing off an experienced ref are not consistent with the "honest or earnest" approach.

Picture a parent coming to a coaching forum looking for a tactful way to influence a coach about a team style of play that would definitely work to his kid's benefit. I wonder what kind of initial response he might get from the coaches.

The longer this thread goes on, the harder this point will be to defend, but I really did not start this thread to get advice on influencing officiating. I know the thread has become about that and I have engaged in it liberally but on this topic, I'm not completely closed-minded, but I'm pretty damned opinionated already. It really was supposed to be a "would it be possible or even desirable to do away with this aspect of the game all together." I go back and forth about how I would answer this question myself which is why I asked it in an officials' forum.

Crud. The other two parts of your post that I wanted to respond to are really excellent (your post, not my response) but I am running out of steam for tonight.

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 10th, 2006 at 05:57 AM]

[Raymond]

Bebanovich, the only reason I used the phrase "working the official, so to speak" is because the name of this thread is "coaches "working" officials ".

But my main point was, I don't think officials should be in the business of advising coaches how to communicate/coach. I think you would gain much more insight by thoroughly observing a coach who seems to do well in dealing with officials. Maybe talk to a coach or two to gain some lessons learned from their careers.

You are not going to gain any concrete answers here b/c just like coaches, officials have their own personalities. We each have our own level of tolerance and our own little pet peeves. Also, each game has its own personality, and what might be tolerated one game may not be tolerated the next.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by BadNewsRef
Bebanovich, the only reason I used the phrase "working the official, so to speak" is because the name of this thread is "coaches "working" officials ".

But my main point was, I don't think officials should be in the business of advising coaches how to communicate/coach. I think you would gain much more insight by thoroughly observing a coach who seems to do well in dealing with officials. Maybe talk to a coach or two to gain some lessons learned from their careers.

You are not going to gain any concrete answers here b/c just like coaches, officials have their own personalities. We each have our own level of tolerance and our own little pet peeves. Also, each game has its own personality, and what might be tolerated one game may not be tolerated the next.

Yeah, I hear that. I wish there were some correctable error guidelines for the internet because I kind of went nuclear on this thread without meaning to.

BadNewsRef, do you think the rules are all that they can be in terms of moderating coach/official interaction and that each game should be allowed to have its own personality in this area? Or do you think a concerted effort is needed to rein in coaches (and I'm really thinking, by extension, parents)? I hear officials justifiably lament all of the crap they have to put up with but I'm wondering if this is mostly just the normal venting about the woes of the workplace like teachers talking about the students (who they secretly love) as if they are some kind of disease?

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by JCrow
... It's just that I don't see the subject of pre-calculated verbage in terms of increasing the satisfaction of winning.

... But that stuff is on specific points of the Rules that are actually happening during a game. It's sincere and spontaneous.

OK, I think I finally thought of a way to explain how I see it. Every coach has done a minimal amount of pre-calculation and is not simply spontaneously standing up equally for specific points of rules. If my point guard travelled and you didn't call it and I yelled, "WALK!" that would be completely spontaneous and without precalculation. It would also be insane. All coaches have, at least said, "it doesn't help me to draw violations on my own team."

I have gone one step further and said, "99% of the time, it really doesn't benefit our style to have any kind of open-court contact called, so I have decided that I will rarely argue for it even when we could benefit in the short-run. I also tend to question those calls more than others, but I don't do it indiscriminately and I don't do it without demanding that my players take note and adjust. If I'm questioning the call, it's because I have questions about the call.

When I saw other posts saying I should pick my moments, I thought, "OK, good. I'm doing that." I just happen to inform them by thinking a lot . . . what do you want, I have a one hour commute each way through the mountains with no decent radio reception.

I know your point was more than that and also had to do with the idea of having thought about what to say and how to say it. This is a little trickier. I will just say that we all have our pet phrases - just ask my wife or students. I also wish to tread lightly if I'm going to question someone in front of a bunch of people so I want to have given it a little thought. Lastly, my posts here were meant to be examples of rules of thumb and not a script for future use. I never know exactly what's going to come out of my mouth until right before it does. I used to not know until after it happened but then I started teaching and I had to create a little buffer zone.

Also, I don't think it's a huge crime to want to be overheard telling a player that you think an official has made the right call. How many of you have been about to leave money in a tip jar at Starbucks (or similar) when the cashier turns his/her back to do something else. You know you wait until they come back so they can see you putting that tip in there. You're going to tip anyway but you want it to be visible if you have a choice. It's not like you wouldn't tip if they went on break or you would take the tip back out again (I hope).

[Edited by bebanovich on Feb 10th, 2006 at 11:56 PM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Look into my eyes...you are getting sleepy...

Kinda cute - coach comes to an official's forum and who does he piss off?

Another coach. :shrug:

Anyway I've heard there are coaches that will work you by saying *you're* doing a great job but your *partner* is killing him. No coach has ever said that to me but I've heard that it's done.

Happened to me this season, actually. Coach says "YOU'RE doing a great job" to me as I'm standing in front of him. I actually said, "Go on, say the rest." And he did, and I laughed as I got away from him.

He was winning by about 40 points at the time.

[Adam]

Originally posted by bebanovich

Also, I don't think it's a huge crime to want to be overheard telling a player that you think an official has made the right call. How many of you have been about to leave money in a tip jar at Starbucks (or similar) when the cashier turns his/her back to do something else. You know you wait until they come back so they can see you putting that tip in there. You're going to tip anyway but you want it to be visible if you have a choice. It's not like you wouldn't tip if they went on break or you would take the tip back out again (I hope).

You're supposed to tip at Starbucks?
Seriously, when I tip at coffee shop, I don't even care who sees me, including the staff. It's not like they're going to remember my dollar or two the next time I come in. "Hey, I got Mr. Wells. He always drops a Washington ino the jar."

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

You're supposed to tip at Starbucks?

Yes, when you are at the gas station you are supposed to grab a couple of pennies from the take a penny tray and then leave them in the jar at Starbucks.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

You're supposed to tip at Starbucks?
Seriously, when I tip at coffee shop, I don't even care who sees me, including the staff. It's not like they're going to remember my dollar or two the next time I come in. "Hey, I got Mr. Wells. He always drops a Washington ino the jar."

That thing's a tip jar?

Geeze, I always pull a buck or 2 out of that jar. Who knew it was for them???

[PGCougar]

Wow!! You guys make enough money to go to Starbucks for coffee??? And have enough money left over to tip???

[Adam]

Originally posted by PGCougar
Wow!! You guys make enough money to go to Starbucks for coffee??? And have enough money left over to tip???

Coach, that's because we're union. Wanna join?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by PGCougar
Wow!! You guys make enough money to go to Starbucks for coffee??? And have enough money left over to tip???

I know what you mean, Cougar. It's amazing to me that the same people who complain about $2.50/gal for gas are willing to shell out $30/gal for a stupid cup of coffee.

[dblref]

Not me, I hate the taste of Starbucks. I just stop by the local 7-11 and pay $0.85 for a refill for my travel mug.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by dblref
I just stop by the local 7-11 and pay $0.85 for a refill for my travel mug.

I think you'd be better off drinking the gas at $2.50/gal.

I'm going to make a full snob confession on my preferences.

1) Buy 'em green and roast my own. Use a coffee maker that brews at a separate temp than the little hot pad that keeps the pot warm - not easy to find but not necessarily expensive.

2) A good Mom & Pop-type place that roasts on site or at least knows what they are doing.

3) Starbucks in a pinch *gag* (not on the coffee but the idea)

If I'm unconscious, please feel free to throw the 7-11 coffee on to revive me but try to avoid the mouth region.

7-11 coffee? Come on ref, you're killing me!