coaches "working" officials

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by JCrow
Coach - "You're a riot! You actually spend time thinking about this stuff? Before a game, you must be like Robert DiNiro in front of a mirror practicing saying,

"You talking to me, Ref?

"YOU.......talkingtomeRef?

"you TALKING to ME, ref?

Hey, to each his own but as a Coach, I think you'd be better off working on basketball's finer points with the kids.

Yeah, sounds like you've pegged me, JCrow. I would coach my kids about basketball but I can't really think about more than 1 thing at a time and next week I'll be thinking about car wax. Anyone know of a good car wax forum?

If only there were some coaching resources I could have access to, maybe I could spend a week thinking about that.

[WyMike]

Coach,

I'm a two year official in basketball and football but am not new to the "game" you're describing. As a father of three grown children and now a grandpa to one, I've had ample opportunity to coach as well as be a stand-in umpire in the old days of little league.

Both of my daughters were State Champions as sisters on the same HS team in volleyball and went on to have their college tuition paid for by their athletic and scholastic abilities. I also helped coach their traveling VB squads for AAU and national tournament play.

Bottom line? I know how to work refs. I've done it. I've earned it. I've gotten the 50/50 calls to maybe fall my way and I've been totally ignored other times.

When something was really missed, and I mean really missed, I would be short, quick and explosive and then let it go. Believe me, a ref knows when he blew a call and it happens. It's happened to me but we go on.

It doesn't need to be dwelled upon for three periods as everyone knows what has happened.

I don't post often here any more since I'm running out of daylight by days end, but I sense many different philosophies from many different thread participants.

Suffice it to say, whatever we are paid is nowhere near what should be paid for the amount of garbage, we as referee's put up with every year. On the other hand, we are expected to do a fair and honest game.

How many times have you seen a ref miss a call which you want, but then allows *your player* a little slack at other times? Is it fair? Probably not. But it can be considered a part of the 'game management' techniques.

My advice to you is, if you want to "work a ref" be short, be succinct, make your point quickly so as not to be perceived as 'showing up the ref', then sit back down.

Toss out a "nice call" or "good catch there" even though his/her call went against you. Be honest with yourself, your team and your officiating crew.

I'm not the best ref out here, in fact if I was considered within the top 50% I'd be happy, but I have much work to do. What I am though is fair and honest. I don't believe any of us explicitly go after a coach or player, we may watch for soemthing due to a reputation, but we don't hunt it down. Or at least I don't.

If I blow something or something happens to which my partner and I aren't sure of or have experienced, rest assured I'll do what I deem to be fair and appropriate. It may not conform to the rule technically, but it will be fair to all parties concerned whether you believe it to be or not.

We are short of officials in our region, mainly due to coaches, parents and lately players thinking they are bigger than the game. And since we are short of officials, often I'll work with another official who only has a few years under their belt as well.

Yes, work the officials in a proper, respectful manner and you'll receive the same treatment in return. Reap what you sow.

But since I have coached for so many years, I persoanlly give coaches quite a bit of slack, and they just don't bother me or get under my skin. I do know the difference between "working a ref" and showing one up or being disrespectful to one. And I will T one up if need be.

After reading this thread, I believe you already know what you're doing, right and wrong, when it comes to the treatment of refs.

If it was your son or daughter out there, how would you want another coach to treat them?

Do unto others my friend...




[Edited by WyMike on Feb 7th, 2006 at 04:50 PM]

[PGCougar]

So...

After 5 pages of coach trying to work the refs on this forum, the biggest take away for me is the following.

1. Any attempt by a coach perceived as "working" or "influence peddling" will most likely be met with resistance and disdain.

2. Continued pining and follow-up lead to an escalation with the general result of it getting personal by both parties. Need proof? Look at this thread as an example in miniature of the whole concept...

3. There is a greater chance of success "working" your team to adjust to the calling style of the officials than "working" the officials to adjust to the playing style of your team.

[bgtg19]

Sometimes I read a post in which it seems like the author has it all together. That's a great post, WyMike, and it helps both coaches *and* officials. Thanks.

[bgtg19]

WyMike's suggestion that coaches periodically throw out a "nice call" or "good catch there" reminds me of something that I have observed, and I offer it here to coaches who are looking for positive ways to interact with officials.

Perhaps even less direct than a "good call" to the official can be calling over your player who has just committed a foul and talking to her/him just loud enough for the calling official, who is now tableside, to hear. Say something like: "Remember what we talked about when we covered the principles of verticality. You had your torso in good position, but your arms were at an angle. These officials are smart enough to see when we're not doing it right." Statements like that serve two purposes: (1) you *are* coaching your players and (2) you *are* complimenting the official without it being so direct that the official will wonder if you're "working" her/him. Just a thought.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JCrow
Coach - "You're a riot! You actually spend time thinking about this stuff? Before a game, you must be like Robert DiNiro in front of a mirror practicing saying,

"You talking to me, Ref?

"YOU.......talkingtomeRef?

"you TALKING to ME, ref?

Hey, to each his own but as a Coach, I think you'd be better off working on basketball's finer points with the kids.

Travis Bickle.

Sigh...the snitful one, JR, was fond of Travis Bickle...

OOPS! Off topic!! Sorry...here are some on-topic words:

HS game, I have a foul on A1, not in the act of shooting because even though A1 was driving the endline he kicked the ball out to team A's 3 point shooting stud as B1 made illegal contact, at least in my opinion anyway. So I report & coach A is having a minor stroke..."Wha??!! C'mon Dan, he was shooting! How is that on the floor???! He was going to shoot!!!"

"Coach", I sez, "we'll just have to disagree on that one because as far as I'm concerned that was a pass"

I gotta admit, if I was being worked his next line did get to me. Half smiling, rolling his eyes he said

"That kid *NEVER* passes the ball."

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by bgtg19
Sometimes I read a post in which it seems like the author has it all together. That's a great post, WyMike, and it helps both coaches *and* officials. Thanks.

I second this motion.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I gotta admit, if I was being worked his next line did get to me. Half smiling, rolling his eyes he said

"That kid *NEVER* passes the ball."

Now that's coaching

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by bgtg19
WyMike's suggestion that coaches periodically throw out a "nice call" or "good catch there" reminds me of something that I have observed, and I offer it here to coaches who are looking for positive ways to interact with officials.

Perhaps even less direct than a "good call" to the official can be calling over your player who has just committed a foul and talking to her/him just loud enough for the calling official, who is now tableside, to hear. Say something like: "Remember what we talked about when we covered the principles of verticality. You had your torso in good position, but your arms were at an angle. These officials are smart enough to see when we're not doing it right." Statements like that serve two purposes: (1) you *are* coaching your players and (2) you *are* complimenting the official without it being so direct that the official will wonder if you're "working" her/him. Just a thought.

Call me cynical if you like, but as evidenced by this thread, I ain't buying anything...good, bad or indifferent...coming from a coach during a game.

I'm not buying before or after the game either.

[JCrow]

http://www.carpolishes.com/

Excellent career move.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by PGCougar
So...

After 5 pages of coach trying to work the refs on this forum . . .

My, my . . . feeling a little sensitive are we? I think the big boys felt like they were having a grown-up conversation. I'm sorry if you're feeling worked. Did some mean coach tell you that vertical stripes aren't slimming and you're feeling grumpy?

My motivation for working officials here is what exactly? You might accidently let slip some deep secret from the fraternal order of basketball officials that I could use to extort you for calls at my next game?

Bwooohoooohaaaahaaa . . . my evil plan is nearly complete. But wait . . . what's this? I'm foiled by the brilliance of PGCougar. Blast!

Yes, this kind of discriminating judgment must make you a fantastic official. Don't take what you're seeing at face value . . . read between the lines and project what you think my motives must be based on your past experiences with other coaches, etc. Fantastic!

Isn't there a Fox-40 emoticon so you can give me a T or two and show my *** who is boss?

Do you see any difference between me trying to work someone and me trying to have a grown-up conversation with thoughtful people (which is, mostly what has transpired here, thanks to some true ambassadors of the game)?

There you go Coug, I made my motives for this post crystal clear so you won't have any trouble discerning them. No hidden agenda here, OK?

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by JCrow
http://www.carpolishes.com/

Excellent career move.

Glazes, polishes, cleaners, detailing kits, micro fiber detail towel?! No, no . . . I can't handle more than one thing at a time. Wax only please. And, in terms of a career move, I thought I couldn't go any lower than coach.

[SMEngmann]

Originally posted by bgtg19
WyMike's suggestion that coaches periodically throw out a "nice call" or "good catch there" reminds me of something that I have observed, and I offer it here to coaches who are looking for positive ways to interact with officials.

Perhaps even less direct than a "good call" to the official can be calling over your player who has just committed a foul and talking to her/him just loud enough for the calling official, who is now tableside, to hear. Say something like: "Remember what we talked about when we covered the principles of verticality. You had your torso in good position, but your arms were at an angle. These officials are smart enough to see when we're not doing it right." Statements like that serve two purposes: (1) you *are* coaching your players and (2) you *are* complimenting the official without it being so direct that the official will wonder if you're "working" her/him. Just a thought.

I generally don't like complements coming from a coach during a game because most of the time they're disingenuous. I don't want a buddy now and then have that same person become an enemy later, I like consistency. I've noticed that often the more polite people tend to be the worst ones in terms of trying to get one over on me. This type of compliment seems like the coach is talking down to me or judging me, and I tend to resent that. Similarly, I would not want to discuss either team's strategy after the game or evaluate the quality of the coach's team or players in the presence of the team's coach. I respect the domain of the coach, I don't question him or discuss the strategic elements of the game with him, and I think that such compliments as the one you suggest cross over that same line onto rules/mechanics, which is the domain of the official. In my opinion, it's a matter of respect.

[bgtg19]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I respect the domain of the coach, I don't question him or discuss the strategic elements of the game with him, and I think that such compliments as the one you suggest cross over that same line onto rules/mechanics, which is the domain of the official. In my opinion, it's a matter of respect.

We certainly agree that it is a matter of respect. I suppose we might have some disagreement about how best to demonstrate that respect. Just like there are a lot of different parenting styles, the most important thing to get across to your children is that you LOVE them. Even though we parents mess up and say or do something wrong, our kids generally *know* when we're being genuine and they're pretty forgiving of our mistakes. I think the same thing goes here. We officials generally *know* when we are being respected and when we are being snowed. We can be pretty accepting of the wrong words from a coach who has demonstrated the right motive. And so we're back to our area of agreement: it is a matter of respect.

For what it is worth, although there is nothing "special" about the words I suggested, I do not agree that a coach talking to her/his players about rules is crossing into an arena that belongs exclusively to us as officials. Good coaches teach their players the rules so that the players can play within them. We have often talked about how the good team will adjust to what officials are/are not calling. A coach plays a significant role in helping her/his players learn how and where to adjust.

[PGCougar]

Originally posted by bebanovich

My, my . . . feeling a little sensitive are we? I think the big boys felt like they were having a grown-up conversation. I'm sorry if you're feeling worked. Did some mean coach tell you that vertical stripes aren't slimming and you're feeling grumpy?

My motivation for working officials here is what exactly? You might accidently let slip some deep secret from the fraternal order of basketball officials that I could use to extort you for calls at my next game?

Bwooohoooohaaaahaaa . . . my evil plan is nearly complete. But wait . . . what's this? I'm foiled by the brilliance of PGCougar. Blast!

Yes, this kind of discriminating judgment must make you a fantastic official. Don't take what you're seeing at face value . . . read between the lines and project what you think my motives must be based on your past experiences with other coaches, etc. Fantastic!

Isn't there a Fox-40 emoticon so you can give me a T or two and show my *** who is boss?

Do you see any difference between me trying to work someone and me trying to have a grown-up conversation with thoughtful people (which is, mostly what has transpired here, thanks to some true ambassadors of the game)?

There you go Coug, I made my motives for this post crystal clear so you won't have any trouble discerning them. No hidden agenda here, OK?

Hey Bebanovich,

Hope that throbbing vein subsides - it's not very becoming.

Just in case you didn't know, I've been coaching for 20 years and other than filling in for rec programs in a pinch, have never officiated. I'd be a lousy official I'm sure. I think you read wayyyyyyy too much into what I said and jumped to conclusions. I wonder if the officials might jump to conclusions on comments you might make too...

Look, if you believe you can spend your time influencing the calls, go ahead. I'll spend a few moments getting clarifications from the officiating crew on what's happening and then work with my team to adjust. I guess it's my belief that my team is more open to suggestions than the officials.

Have a great season coach.