coaches "working" officials

[JCrow]

One of my 10th Grade players this year in the YBL has the habit of "resting" his hand on the hip of a driving defender. He doesn't push off or affect the dribbler - he just puts a "lazy" hand on him. He has the potential to be a very point guard. I told him in practice that if the driver shoots that most Refs will call this a foul as there was a POE out a few years back on it.

First game, a kid on the other team drives. My guy gives him the lazy-hand....TWEET...3-point play. We lose in OT.

Superbowl. Here's a part of the NFL's rule on Pass Interfernce:

(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.

Granted, Seattle's receiver would have caught that pass regardless of his PI move BUT it was a legit call. His technique was flawed. The Seattle Coach thinks the Refs stole his Superbowl but did he spend enough time coaching proper technique with his receivers to avoid such a disaster in the ultimate game?

Coaches that go after Refs are just ducking responsibility.
Had I worked more with my PG on that "lazy hand".....had I been more creative in practice (maybe make him wear a mitten one practice).....my Team might have won that game.

Likewise, Mike Holgram should have worked harder on his receivers' technique. A sloppy technique cost him 6 in the Superbowl not the Ref.

As a Coach...I just have to believe that working on technique & fundamentals pays off higher than using manipulation verbage on the Refs. It's working on legitimately getting better at something and not being a weasel.

[Ref Daddy]

An analogy to consider.

Referee's represent a certain authority on the basketball floor. We have our responsibilities to call violations fairly, clearly and to the best of our abilities.

Others in society have a similiar role.

So lets say a "refferee working " coach is on the team bus and its pulled over by a peace officer for not clearing an intersection after a red light.

Would you want your children on the bus to hear:
"Thats a incredibaly stupid call Officer"
"Thats rediculious, it was the other guy"
"What are you stopping us for, look at everybody else"
"Go watch that intersection and leave us alone"
"Your killing me, this is just stupid"
"I'm calling your captain tonight and reporting just how incompetent you are"
'why don't you go catch some real criminals?"
.... or worse.

I don't want to overly compare refereeing a simple HS sporting contest with the respect due to police officers everywhere - but I do raise the question: "Would you want your children hearing that?

What would their reaction be?

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by JCrow

Superbowl. Here's a part of the NFL's rule on Pass Interfernce:

(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.

Granted, Seattle's receiver would have caught that pass regardless of his PI move BUT it was a legit call. His technique was flawed. The Seattle Coach thinks the Refs stole his Superbowl but did he spend enough time coaching proper technique with his receivers to avoid such a disaster in the ultimate game?


Likewise, Mike Holgram should have worked harder on his receivers' technique. A sloppy technique cost him 6 in the Superbowl not the Ref.

As a Coach...I just have to believe that working on technique & fundamentals pays off higher than using manipulation verbage on the Refs. It's working on legitimately getting better at something and not being a weasel.

You just had to go there didn't you...now my hypnosis therapy is wearing off faster than it should. Thanks a lot!

This bebanovich guy (I'm assuming he's a guy) seems like the worst kind of coach. He thinks he's "working" refs when he's really just being a PITA...look at his posts here. Any post that agrees with him is a wonderful, insightful, thoughtful post...someone like PGCougar comes along and disagrees with him, and it's instant sarcasm and a-holeness (is that a word? If not, it should be)...we all know coaches like that, don't we?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad

You just had to go there didn't you...now my hypnosis therapy is wearing off faster than it should. Thanks a lot!

Look into my eyes...you are getting sleepy...

This bebanovich guy (I'm assuming he's a guy) seems like the worst kind of coach. He thinks he's "working" refs when he's really just being a PITA...look at his posts here. Any post that agrees with him is a wonderful, insightful, thoughtful post...someone like PGCougar comes along and disagrees with him, and it's instant sarcasm and a-holeness (is that a word? If not, it should be)...we all know coaches like that, don't we?

Kinda cute - coach comes to an official's forum and who does he piss off?

Another coach. :shrug:

Anyway I've heard there are coaches that will work you by saying *you're* doing a great job but your *partner* is killing him. No coach has ever said that to me but I've heard that it's done.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Look into my eyes...you are getting sleepy...

Kinda cute - coach comes to an official's forum and who does he piss off?

Another coach. :shrug:

Anyway I've heard there are coaches that will work you by saying *you're* doing a great job but your *partner* is killing him. No coach has ever said that to me but I've heard that it's done.

It happens and the next time you switch he's telling your partner what a great job he's doing and saying but Dan is killing me.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Look into my eyes...you are getting sleepy...

Kinda cute - coach comes to an official's forum and who does he piss off?

Another coach. :shrug:

Anyway I've heard there are coaches that will work you by saying *you're* doing a great job but your *partner* is killing him. No coach has ever said that to me but I've heard that it's done.

ROFLMAO...that's a great picture!!

[Jimgolf]

Just some advice for what has worked for me when I've coached, as far as working the refs.

"Good call, ref". "Nice game, ref". "I hope you get assigned here again."

After awhile, you stop worrying about every call. You realize that half the time you were going to yell, there's a turnover or a different call that makes your complaint moot.

Then you realize that the "bad calls" tend to even out anyway.

Finally, you notice that your players are playing better because you are coaching them instead of complaining constantly.

Try officiating for awhile and see how you respond to coaches "working you". It's sure to help your perspective.

[Ref Daddy]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
Just some advice for what has worked for me when I've coached, as far as working the refs.

"Good call, ref". "Nice game, ref". "I hope you get assigned here again."

After awhile, you stop worrying about every call. You realize that half the time you were going to yell, there's a turnover or a different call that makes your complaint moot.

Then you realize that the "bad calls" tend to even out anyway.

Finally, you notice that your players are playing better because you are coaching them instead of complaining constantly.

Try officiating for awhile and see how you respond to coaches "working you". It's sure to help your perspective.

Amen.

[Raymond]

Sincerely IMO, I think if a coach wants to learn the best way to "work an official", so to speak, a coach should elicit that type of advice from successful coaches he/she respects, and not from officials.

I wouldn't go to a coach's forum and ask what is the best way to communicate with coaches. I would go to fellow officials for that type of advice.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by PGCougar

Hey Bebanovich,

Hope that throbbing vein subsides - it's not very becoming.

Just in case you didn't know, I've been coaching for 20 years and other than filling in for rec programs in a pinch, have never officiated. I'd be a lousy official I'm sure.

No, not a throbbing vein, but sarcastic, snarkiness. Certainly a swing and a miss in either case. I don't understand this implication that I'm here to "work" anyone here and I find it kind of silly.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by BadNewsRef
Sincerely IMO, I think if a coach wants to learn the best way to "work an official", so to speak, a coach should elicit that type of advice from successful coaches he/she respects, and not from officials.

I wouldn't go to a coach's forum and ask what is the best way to communicate with coaches. I would go to fellow officials for that type of advice.

OK. I am posting the two paragraphs from the original post containing all of the questions that I asked. Although the post has never been edited, I can't seem to find the question, "can you officials please tell me how to work you?" I have left the post single-spaced so you will need to cut and paste into a text document and double-space if you need extra room to read between the lines.

Originally posted by Bebanovich

Since then I am much more selective about the types of calls being made and the crew before I open my mouth. My question is - is the pressure/chatter from coaches a necessary evil in this equation? I'm sure there must be some temptation to just mandate that they all sit down and shut-up except to coach the kids. But there must also be times where a coach says something that rings true to you and might legimately influence the flow of the game and the calls, or even just one call or situation.

I am sure you have seen colleagues who are more vulnerable to an angry or smooth-talking coach than others. I have run across one official who gave a T to a coach who asked for a clarification on the type of contact involved in a foul - thankfully it wasn't me. How much a part of the game is the coach's interaction with officials and is it OK that it is any part of the game? Is it a positive factor as long as you can control them well?

I thought answers might be along the lines of, "Parents and fans are really getting out of control and coaches are feeding the fire. There need to be harsher restrictions on coachers during games." Or, "coaches have a right to ask for clarification on calls and to ask questions. Coaches also get caught up in the emotion of the game and you just can't draw a hard line in the sand. It will always come down to officials' judgment."

I know that, as a teacher, if ALL of my students seem to be off-base with their answers than the error is in the question but - come on - it doesn't remotely ask how to work anyone.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by rockyroad


This bebanovich guy (I'm assuming he's a guy) seems like the worst kind of coach. He thinks he's "working" refs when he's really just being a PITA...look at his posts here. Any post that agrees with him is a wonderful, insightful, thoughtful post...someone like PGCougar comes along and disagrees with him, and it's instant sarcasm and a-holeness (is that a word? If not, it should be)...we all know coaches like that, don't we?

Can you find an example of a post where I was sarcastic or a-holey (let's just make a-holeness and a-holey both words) to someone who wasn't either insinuating (for some, as yet, unexplained reason) that I'm here to work the forum, calling me a liar, calling me unprofessional, calling me the worst kind of coach, calling me a howler monkey (despite no real evidence), was intentionally patronizing sarcastic and a-holey?

For example, JCrow brought up a good example about the message that it sends to kids if you try to work the refs and that it can give your kids an excuse to lose and turn them into victims. While I agreed with the basic premise of his statement, I didn't agree entirely with his take. I started with, "This is a very good point and something that I deal with directly with my team." Then I presented my take. It felt like a grown-up conversation with disagreement.

Later, JCrow decided to get a little patronizing and poke a little fun because I spend time thinking about stuff like this. He advised me to try thinking about coaching. Although I came here for, and enjoy, the intellectual pursuits and can actually handle thinking about a few things at once, I also enjoy the sarcasm and snarkiness when that seems to be where things are going.

See? Same person, two disagreements. One I label thoughtful, one I get all sarcastic and a-holey. And I have the same wry smile on my face when I type both.

Now, while I don't find your post especially thoughtful, and you did, in all fairness, come about as close to calling me a sarcastic a-hole as one possibly can without doing it. And you threw in the patronizing old, "...we all know coaches like that, don't we?" I think this response is remarkably low on the sarcastometer.

[lmeadski]

a little voice inside of me says, "you aren't helping your team coach...you aren't helping your team coach." The same when I do hear fans, especially on silly things like 3 seconds (toes are in the paint), he got mugged (incidental contact), etc. Are there any/many refs that would actually cave/be influenced by a coach that is ranting or kissing @ss other than want to look the other way on close calls for that team? Work me all you want...you may pay a price. However, that price will not be favorable calls for you.

[JCrow]

Bebanovich,

Unfortunately, due to certain character defects in my personality that the medications, professionals and my wife have been unable to correct.....I can be sarcastic and a-holey. It's easy being a Knight of the Keyboard. I'm working on it.

The very fact that you are out there working with kids makes you a good guy. None of us are perfect. Trust me, I appreciate the difficulty in Coaching. And I'll admit it...I HATE LOSING.

It's just that I don't see the subject of pre-calculated verbage in terms of increasing the satisfaction of winning. It's just bush to me. There are times when a Coach has to speak up. I saw an Andover-Lowell Game a about 8 years ago. Andover presses hard and IMO hand-checks on the traps. Defenders routinely put a hand on the trapped kids hip and pin him from pivoting. Successfully. The Lowell Team plays clean the whole game. The Refs are NOT calling the handchecks. The Lowell Coach says nothing all game. I left that game thinking that the Lowell Coach should have spoke out. This was the first year of the Rule Change on the Double-Bonus. Player Control Foul on Andover - 10th Team Foul - the Refs took Lowell down and gave them 2 shots. If I were the Andover Coach...I'd have been yelling about that one. (I'm an Andover Fan....I was yelling about it from the stands. Sorry guys...it's true.)

But that stuff is on specific points of the Rules that are actually happening during a game. It's sincere and spontaneous. Whether it's in business, personal life or Reffing....nobody likes somebody working them over physchologically or stirring up animosity with fans or kids.

[PGCougar]

Originally posted by bebanovich
No, not a throbbing vein, but sarcastic, snarkiness. Certainly a swing and a miss in either case. I don't understand this implication that I'm here to "work" anyone here and I find it kind of silly.

OK, let's just get past this argument over semantics of "working" versus "communicating" or "having an adult conversation." If all we're really doing is communicating with the officials, that's OK, in fact necessary at times. Good communication fosters an exchange of ideas, and that's a good thing. Sometimes it even influences one of the two parties involved.

Where I think we veer into different directions is the notion that you can build a predictable strategy based entirely on this approach. It's really the substance of whatever you're going to discuss with an official that will determine whether or not you might gain a sympathetic ear. Substance, not the form or manner. And so there's no real way, other than to be honest and earnest with the officials in the flow of the game. I think that some concepts, like ratcheting up the pressure on an inexperienced ref or backing off an experienced ref are not consistent with the "honest or earnest" approach.

Picture a parent coming to a coaching forum looking for a tactful way to influence a coach about a team style of play that would definitely work to his kid's benefit. I wonder what kind of initial response he might get from the coaches. Or even more personal, how well would you take to a parent behind your bench strategically trying to engage you during the flow of a game, questioning your team's approach or making observations about might would work better?

In the grand scheme of all things that influence the outcome of a game, I'd look first to turnovers, then to defensive rebounds, then to offensive rebounds, then to shooting percentages (missed lay-ups, free throws left at the line including missed front ends of 1&1's, etc.) Focus and improvement on all these factors have a much higher yield in the outcome of a game, making the need to "influence" the officials in your favor moot. Whenever a parent tells me the official blew a game for us, I can immediately point to the missed free throws, missed lay-ups, and turnovers and then blame our team for not taking care of business...