coaches "working" officials

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by socalreff
Dan ref.... you're a bitter old man.

Hey now...how do you know he's bitter? How do you know he's old? Just because he likes the damn Yankees doesn't make him old and bitter...

As far as advice for the original posting coach - leave the officials alone. You can't honestly believe that the refs are making calls based on anything the other coach says. The whole idea of refs getting "worked" is silly - just coach your team. If the other coach is doing lots of yelling, a simple "You gonna let him do that all night?" is all you need to say...just coach your kids...

[FishinRef]

Originally posted by blindzebra

"Coaches that yap all game cause headaches, but they don't get calls."
"In fact, if you want to use the violation calling machine reference, the natural reaction to a pain in the rear is not to give them what they want."
"Coaches that say very little and pick there spots, garner much more respect and get listened to and not just heard."
"You want an officials advice, coach your team, don't worry about the officials, don't worry about what the other coach is doing, if you and your team are focused on playing everything takes care of itself."

I think blindzerbra's earlier quote states it best.

Treat your officials with respect, ask LEGITIMATE questions, DO NOT officiate the game, and you will be amazed at how enjoyable games can be played.

Officials will usually communicate with each other during the game and especially during the breaks regarding what is happening on the floor and how it is being addressed.

[SmokeEater]

Sounds like the "Coach" is trying to "work" this thread.... or is it the Officials replying to this thread.

Thank You Coach, I will watch for it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad

Hey now...how do you know he's bitter? How do you know he's old? Just because he likes the damn Yankees doesn't make him old and bitter...

Geeze Rocky, thanks for putting in a good word for me...I kinda thought you would spend a couple of days hanging around the house unshaved in your PJs & slippers...you know, on account of what happened, well, you know, uhmmm...yesterday - getting screwed by those damn football referees and all.

Originally posted by rainmaker

Just a few suggestions from a grouchy ref.

Hang in there, you'll reach bitter & old soon enough.

You have potential!

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Geeze Rocky, thanks for putting in a good word for me...I kinda thought you would spend a couple of days hanging around the house unshaved in your PJs & slippers...you know, on account of what happened, well, you know, uhmmm...yesterday - getting screwed by those damn football referees and all.

Huh??? What in the world are you talking about? i really have no idea what you are referring to...see, I went to a hypnotherapist this morning before work and the last 24 hours are completely blacked out for me. Sometime in the next three to five days, reality will come crashing back down and I will realize how many blown opportunities and assignments there were yesterday...then, and only then will we talk about those %$#&*$@ referees!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad

Huh??? What in the world are you talking about? i really have no idea what you are referring to...see, I went to a hypnotherapist this morning before work and the last 24 hours are completely blacked out for me. Sometime in the next three to five days, reality will come crashing back down and I will realize how many blown opportunities and assignments there were yesterday...then, and only then will we talk about those %$#&*$@ referees!

Hmmm...sounds like there's an opportunity for those Boston hypnotherapists to open a practice in Seattle.

btw...check out this clown:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playof...ael&id=2320683

[rockyroad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]

Originally posted by rockyroad

Hmmm...sounds like there's an opportunity for those Boston hypnotherapists to open a practice in Seattle.

btw...check out this clown:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playof...ael&id=2320683

I don't think it cost them the game, but I don't like the 3 or 4 major calls of the game...nuff said for now. When the hypnosis wears off, then I'll remember more...

[bebanovich]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by bebanovich
The only other thing I said to officials all night was a quip to the same ref as he ran by and it ended up being a tournament win for us. .


HELLO!?!? Are you listening to yourself? You quit bugging the refs and your team won. Why not, "Lesson learned?"


The very next sentence was, "Since then I am much more selective about the types of calls being made and the crew before I open my mouth."

Not exactly, "lesson learned," but also not exactly, "so after the jerk ran by, I let loose a string of profanities about his mother."

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by bgtg19

Coach, I'll take your sincerity at face value, but can I suggest that you did not give the alternate approach much of a chance? In the first post, you said: "I decided that I was going to put all of my game energy into coaching the bench and was not going to say anything to officials during the games (except when necessary for a clarification or conference, etc)." You then changed your mind "by the end of [your] first game back." You said: "After that game, I decided that I couldn't just say nothing and needed another plan." I'm not accussing you of being insincere, but I will say that if you changed your mind after one game it does appear that you were a little too eager to enter the fray with the officials. As you say, you've given this topic a lot of thought.

Why not give your first plan a real chance at success? Tarheelcoach has given you/us a coach's perspective that in many games "working" (even in the positive sense) officials is unnecessary. There might be a few crews that invite some "working," and you simply respond to their invitation. You admitted that the crew on your first game back was an inexperienced crew. Can you go through a whole season with a coaching-only attitude and see how it goes? You might be surprised at the results.

I agree with those who have posted that when a coach is constantly questioning the officials, it sends a message to their players. You have been careful to point out that you are clear with your players about *their* roles - they don't get to complain - and that is a good step, but you may not be fully appreciating the message that you are sending to the young people who are learning life lessons from you.

Best wishes as you continue to learn and improve. Most of us here are similarly hoping to learn and improve.

Thank you for your thoughtful post and you make an excellent point. I will start by answering the point and saying that, from a coaching stand-point, feeling like I got worked was not acceptable to me. OK Dan_Ref and BlindZebra, start cutting and pasting from above.

I also knew that my kids thought that, despite my coaching them, I wasn't in the game. Imagine The White Shadow but without Salami and Goldberg. I had one early season practice with two players in the gym and 6 players standing in front of the school making some kind of a statement. Coach Drill-Instructor gets abandoned and coach Buddy-Boy gets walked-on. By game 1 I've got their attention but afterwards I've got a silent van full of disappointed players who think I wasn't in the game.

For most of the first season I didn't have the tools or awareness to do much more than chirp enough to not get out-squeaked and, while that seems to have raised a lot of ire here, I have never so much as flirted with a T. My original post - obviously poorly titled and, I guess, not totally clear - was meant to say: I started out wanting to say nothing; I decided I couldn't do that and started saying something - respectfully, never personal, not constantly but without much thought or plan; a good crew made me realize that I needed to be much more discriminating and selective; I then asked if coaches-working-officials-interactions were a necessary evil or if they should be mandated out of existence, I speculated that maybe there were times where a coach legitimately pointed out some concern or emphasis that was legit, I asked if there was some positive aspect as long as they could be controlled.

I don't plan to go a whole season of just coaching the bench mainly because I feel like 90% my interactions with officials are very positive. What I defined as "working" an official is what several thoughtful posters described as things I should try instead of "working" an official. Asking questions, showing respect, talking quietly and on breaks and picking my moments. I would say that about 8% or maybe less, I might put the heat to a less-experienced or less-confident crew. Basketball is competition and we all learn to take the heat. No new official will ever get a personal slur, accusation or F-bomb from me, they also won't get my apologies for poking at the edges a little. About 2% is emotion/ego.

I've come this far, I might as well finish 'er off . . . I did not intend to ruffle any feathers or push any buttons with this thread but now that I have I will admit it's been a little fun to watch. I've seen:

A few very thoughtful posts from officials who thought that sometimes the squeaky wheel does get greased but that it might be best to bide my time and wait for the opportunity to point out that the opposing wheel was just doing a bunch of squeaking. One or two officials tried to help me project what this might look like and if this was possible. I think I learned something new here.

A lot of very thoughtful posts who admitted that sometimes a weak crew could be worked but that, by and large it was better to focus on the kids and pick your spots. I think I'm already 90% with you.

A few thoughtful posts who gave helpful advice telling me to stop being a pest but many of these responses seemed to be based on an impression garnered from other posts that I was just a howler monkey.

A few less than thoughtful posts telling me that the suggestion that ANY officials calls could be influenced by a coach was outrageous and that any coach trying to influence his calls was going to negatively influence his calls. These were fun.

A couple of flame baits. I resisted the urge because I know this is already a touchy subject for a coach to drop on an officials' forum and I do appreciate the thoughtful feedback on a topic that I obviously didn't do a great job of communicating from the start. Another time maybe Dan_Ref and BlindZebra.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally posted by bebanovich
Officials in our area are far better than rec league but they haven't had a raise in over 15 years...

In my mind, this is the fault of the officials, or their local association. Like it or not, when it comes to establishing ref pay, the refs these day hold most of the cards due to the shortage of officials, but usually fail to play them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating screwing the schools or whoever you work for, but being fairly compensated for a service you provide is not unreasonable, and not having a raise in 15 years is ludicrous.

How many of you don't get a raise on a regular basis at your normal job? Why shouldn't officiating be any different?

[SMEngmann]

As someone who coaches HS baseball and officiates basketball, I can understand things from both perspectives. Officials need to understand that the coach has much more at stake and invested in the outcome than the officials, and officials need to consider that in our interaction with coaches. Officials don't have any stake in the outcome of the game and we're there to call a fair game and manage the game. Generally speaking, I don't have problems with coaches who understand that point, and I try to keep that in perspective when coaching.

Of the points mentioned in the post, this is what I take issue with: "No new official will ever get a personal slur, accusation or F-bomb from me, they also won't get my apologies for poking at the edges a little. About 2% is emotion/ego." Firstly, you specified that no "new" official will be insulted like this, I assume you meant all officials. Secondly, what right do you have to "poke at the edges" and what exactly does that mean? Sounds like you are trying to either go after an official personally to get under his skin, or you're trying to throw him off his game. The official is doing a job, what right do you have to intentionally make that job more difficult to do, and what purpose does it serve, other than to stroke your own ego. I have no problem giving explanations, answering questions or even hearing legitimate disagreement, but I do take issue with someone "poking at the edges" to either demean me or make it harder to do my job. How would you like it if your principal or AD sat behind your bench and started "poking at the edges" by criticizing your coaching decisions loudly?

In terms of legitimately dealing with an official, I welcome comments such as "watch for 44 hooking my post player," or something to that effect because it provides me with information that could help me do my job better. The more detailed the information, the more credible it is. I might not see the same thing that you do, but now I know what to look for, or at the least, now I will be able to give you a better explanation if I am not going to make a call. That's good communication, not "working" and the only way a coach can effectively reach that level of communication is if he picks his spots well, and establishes credibility, not by agreeing with every call, but by accepting explanations that I give and most importantly, not constantly begging.

Finally, I accept the argument that a coach needs to stand up for his players, it's one way to maintain control of the team, and to gain respect. I have a rule with my baseball team that players are not allowed to question an umpire's decision, because that's my role as a coach. The line though, is thin, because if you are constantly arguing, you lose credibility with your players, and, as I've seen often officiating, you give your players a scapegoat and a reason to fail. As an official, I have no problem with a coach questioning a call or a no call, as long as they do it without an attempt to show me up and when they get an answer or when play resumes that they leave it alone. Again, we as officials must accept this because the game is a competitive game and the emotions of competition can sometimes take over, but it must never be persistent, get personal or be abrasive in any way.

[Junker]

Ok, it took me a half hour to read this thread, so I thought I'd chime in. Coach, it sounds like you are on the right track to dealing with officials. I give much more creedance to a coach that picks his or her spots rather than the ones that are complaining on every possession. There is a coach in a conference I work often that knows the game very well. Some nights he comes in and asks good questions. This has more of an effect on me as an official. I know him well and if he says politely that it looks like I'm missing something, you can bet I'll be thinking about it. This same coach, however, has they Hyde side where some nights he complains at everything and has zero credibility on those nights. As far as you idea that you need to complain to show your team that you are behind them (paraphrasing here), I'd say work hard with your players to make them realize that is untrue. It sounds like you want to take "the road less travelled" here and be the good sportsman, but it isn't easy. Yes, people need to stand up for themselves and in this case, their team, but there's an appropriate time and way of doing this. Keep up the good work as far as making your players treat other respectfully. It is greatly appreciated.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes


In my mind, this is the fault of the officials, or their local association. Like it or not, when it comes to establishing ref pay, the refs these day hold most of the cards due to the shortage of officials, but usually fail to play them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating screwing the schools or whoever you work for, but being fairly compensated for a service you provide is not unreasonable, and not having a raise in 15 years is ludicrous.

How many of you don't get a raise on a regular basis at your normal job? Why shouldn't officiating be any different?

I have to disagree with you. Officials do not have anything how a league pays officials and how much. This is not in the hands of any official or association. Not everyone is assigned games through associations, so I am not sure how an official's association would have anything to do with what someone gets paid for a particular league.

Peace

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
Of the points mentioned in the post, this is what I take issue with: "No new official will ever get a personal slur, accusation or F-bomb from me, they also won't get my apologies for poking at the edges a little. About 2% is emotion/ego." Firstly, you specified that no "new" official will be insulted like this, I assume you meant all officials. Secondly, what right do you have to "poke at the edges" and what exactly does that mean? Sounds like you are trying to either go after an official personally to get under his skin, or you're trying to throw him off his game.

Wow, what a great post. I'm going to respond only to this part and let the rest speak for itself. I did mean that NO official gets this treatment from me but I was being specific about new er officials because I wanted to make the point that I do up the pressure a little on newer officials. I know it's dangerous to leave it that vague when every official here can probably picture in their sleep what that might look like.

Pressure can't ever be intended simply to get an official off his/her game because that doesn't benefit anyone. The killer combo to me is when it feels too tight in the open court and too loose inside, so I'll stick to that example. My questions might get harsher - but still not loud ("you saw contact from here or you saw his arm going around the man? " or "how is that even effecting the play"). The biggest difference with a newer official is after questioning a play, I usually will shake my head and say, over-dramatically, "I don't know about that."

Occasionally I might say something sarcastic but it's directed at the situation and not the official. Example from our last game: We are a small public school who, because of our size, were put in a private Christian league. I was convinced that our press was forcing our opponent into travelling near half-court but it hadn't been called. In the meantime, I have a tiny, fearless guard who uses a jumpstop move near the basket and he was getting called everytime. My view was obscured but I see him in practice everyday and about 10% of the time his feet don't hit simultaneously. But that point is moot, I wanted the call on our opponent so I (earlier I would have said worked) strategically asked for it. When I got it I said only loudly enough for my bench and the offical to hear, "what do you know, Christians do make mistakes." He looked over a little unsure and I had a big smile on my face. Once he laughed, my kids, who are pretty much all Christians too, laughed as well.

Poke at the edges means I want it to be uncomfortable to blow the whistle I don't want and comfortable to blow the whistle I do want. The better / more experienced the official gets the less comfortable or uncomfortable I can make him/her.

I guess, in a sense, this is taking someone off of their game and this is probably going to be the 10% where thoughtful coach and thoughtful official disagree on this issue.

[JCrow]

Coach - "You're a riot! You actually spend time thinking about this stuff? Before a game, you must be like Robert DiNiro in front of a mirror practicing saying,

"You talking to me, Ref?

"YOU.......talkingtomeRef?

"you TALKING to ME, ref?

Hey, to each his own but as a Coach, I think you'd be better off working on basketball's finer points with the kids.