What's the difference?

[Mark Padgett]

A few years ago at a camp, I was told there was a difference between a personal remark made by a coach, and a "non-personal" remark. The example that was given was "You're terrible" vs. "That was a terrible call." The instructor said that personal remarks almost always deserve a T but that non-personal remarks usually don't, unless there are multiple remarks. It was never explained as to why one was more insulting than the other.

I've really never felt there is a difference. Frankly, if a coach says your call is terrible, isn't that the same as saying you're terrible? After all, you are the one making the call. If it isn't, then can't a smart coach (oh, wait - that's an oxymoron) use that tactic to avoid or prolong getting a T?

If anyone can lend some insight into this distinction, which I have heard espoused many times by different refs, I would love to hear it.

Thanks.

[Dan_ref]

I agree that there's little difference between
"that call sucked!" and "you suck" but for whatever
reason that is the perception. Along these lines other
"non obvious" insults I've heard are "You're usually much
better than that!" ("Nah coach, I'm always this bad. You
just don't always realize it.") and "You made a poor choice
on that call!" ("I don't see that I had any choice coach!")

[rockyroad]

I believe the difference is in the intent or purpose (without trying to read minds or anything)...a statement such as "That's a terrible call" is simply someone disagreeing with my call...a statement such as "You are terrible" is a direct personal insult to me and was intended as such...coaches should be allowed some leeway to vent frustration, but that does not ever include direct personal attacks or insults...just my 2 cents worth - anybody got change??

dj

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
?

If anyone can lend some insight into this distinction, which I have heard espoused many times by different refs, I would love to hear it.

Thanks.

If after the comment you could respond with (not necessarly out loud)"That's why I do your games" then it probably dosen't warrant a T. I do believe each official has his own threshhold of tolerance regarding comments. But, IMO, if you can approach his comments from his position, for just a moment, most times common sense will tell you whether it's time for a T.

[Mark Dexter]

Even good doctors make 'bad calls' (of course, their mistakes can result in death - hence malpractice insurance). I see "that was a bad call" as criticizing the call not me. Now, by the letter of the law, any sort of objection (oral, gestures, body language, etc.) can be penalized, but I doubt that many DI officials got there by calling 20 technical fouls per game.

[williebfree]

There is a slight difference and the comment on the call is venting. The attack on the person is punishable.

OK, now we have 4 cents worth

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I see "that was a bad call" as criticizing the call not me.

I still don't understand this train of thought. Calls are not entities of themselves. They only exist because an official chose to make that call (or non-call). When a coach criticizes a call, aren't they criticizing you for making that call? If not, maybe we should give "calls" the authority to call T's.

To me, it would be the same argument as putting a crime in jail without holding the criminal responsible for committing the crime. To me, that's nonsense.

[williebfree]

Being a staff member in a juvenile correctional facility, I can tell you this is one of the institution's mainstay philosophies:

(Paraphrased)
"The residents are sent to the institution for bad decisions, they are not bad people."
Of course, we still hold the residents totally accountable for their actions; in a palatable approach.

Understanding this, you have to be able to separate the action (comment on the "Call") from the personal attack!

For example, as a staff member, when confronting a student about a negative behavior (As a coach percieves a "Bad" Call), you make a comment, "Johnny, you need to stop yelling! It is not considerate to others. (This addresses the behavior, just as the coach chips "Bad Call", etc)". Just as it is not acceptable for a staff member to make a verbal attack on the resident, "Johnny, STOP YELLING! You're soooo stupid!", it is not appropriate for a coach to verbally attack an official with personal statements.

One more observation on this:
If a resident does not change his conduct with one type of intervention it is time for me, as a staff member, to change the approach. Likewise, a coach that does not realize his "chips" are not effective needs to change his approach.

As an official, you need to respond progressively; establish your threshold, give the "universal sign" and/or a "T" to help them understand.


Does this help?

[Mark Padgett]

Willie - certainly I can see why you use that technique in your position. However, the argument seems to be that if a coach is telling you that your calls are garbage, he is just disagreeing with the call, not your ability to make it. I don't agree with that. IMHO, the coach is accusing you of not being able to make proper calls regardless of how he phrases it. In other words, he is stating you should not be out there making the calls, because you are incompetent to do so.

To me, attacking the action is attacking the person who made the action. After all, isn't a person's competency judged by their ability to make correct decisions? I feel that when a coach attacks my competency, he is attacking me as a person.

I guess I'll have the opportunity to put my theory to the test today, as I have three games this afternoon.

[112448]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Willie - certainly I can see why you use that technique in your position. However, the argument seems to be that if a coach is telling you that your calls are garbage, he is just disagreeing with the call, not your ability to make it. I don't agree with that. IMHO, the coach is accusing you of not being able to make proper calls regardless of how he phrases it. In other words, he is stating you should not be out there making the calls, because you are incompetent to do so.

To me, attacking the action is attacking the person who made the action. After all, isn't a person's competency judged by their ability to make correct decisions? I feel that when a coach attacks my competency, he is attacking me as a person.

I guess I'll have the opportunity to put my theory to the test today, as I have three games this afternoon.

Mark --

My feeling is that you've already decided what you're LINE is, and that is "no comments at all." While that's not the stance I choose to take, that doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong, it just means we're different. If, however, you're going to take that stance, it's still fair to give the coaches a warning before banging them. They need to know that that behavior will be unacceptable on the days you officiate.

I would also say, as a potential partner of someone that has that philosophy, you should tell your co-official(s) in the pregame exactly what your line is and how you intend to enforce it. That way, if you whack a coach for something your partner chooses to ignore, at least your partner will know where you are coming from.

Jake

[Mark Padgett]

Mark --

My feeling is that you've already decided what you're LINE is, and that is "no comments at all."
Jake

Actually, that's not the case at all. I gladly accept comments such as, "Great call ref" and "Outstanding call ref"

Seriously, my "line" is probably further back than most refs. I allow coaches to vent somewhat, as long as they do it in a controlled, professional manner. Usually, I will try to take the time to explain a call if I feel the coach had a legitimate question. I always take time to explain rule interpretations when asked (at the next break, unless there is a dead ball at the time).

Yes, I almost give coaches a warning, usually using the "stop sign.' However, there are some words and/or attitudes that deserve and require a T without a warning. I'm just saying that I don't see any difference between the remark (for example), "You're garbage" and "That call was garbage."

[Brad]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
I'm just saying that I don't see any difference between the remark (for example), "You're garbage" and "That call was garbage." [/B]

I think that the difference is that they are arguing ONE call.

For instance, I would probably give a technical to a coach who said, "You haven't gotten a single call right tonight!"

However, I almost certainly wouldn't give a technical for a coach saying, "You missed that one!"

Saying, "You're garbarge." is not the same as saying "That call was garbage." - it's more like saying, "Every call you have ever made or will ever make is garbage!"

- Brad

[williebfree]

The Difference is....

That we are all individuals who live in a country that is tolerant of disagreement.

I can totally accept where you are at with this Mark (and all other respondents.) I think we all establish our threshold early in the game (or whenever it is dictated by the reactive coach) and use a progressive response.

The difference is WHERE "we draw the line in the sand." AKA Judgement.

BTW: There are definitely some actions that require an instantaneous "T", such as "Loud, Profane Language".

The philosophy that sticks in my head is one offered to me by one of our local athletic directors. "I expect my coaches to maintain the same composure as the teachers in the classroom. The gym is the classroom." He also insisted that I report to him directly if I ever witnessed any of his coaches acting out of line.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by williebfree

The philosophy that sticks in my head is one offered to me by one of our local athletic directors. "I expect my coaches to maintain the same composure as the teachers in the classroom. The gym is the classroom."

By this standard, the coach would get a T from me every time for "That call was garbage!" What an offensive remark to hear in the classroom!! In theory, I agree with Mark, and further more, I have seen many instances where giving the T to the coach actually helped him and the team. The kids in these cases were playing poorly because they were rattled and emotional from the coaches rantings. Once the coach knows where the line is, (by receiving the T) he settles downs AND SO DO THE PLAYERS. I've seen it where this actually changed the outcome of the game in favor of the team receiving the T.

In practice, I find that if the coach says it once or twice and then lets it go, I can let it go too, although I'm finding it easier to challenge these remarks than I used to. "Ref, that's the worst call you made all week!" "But, Coach, you didn't see my game last Tuesday evening --I had a real lulu that night!!" or "Well, I'm glad I finally got it out of the way!"

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by rainmaker
"Ref, that's the worst call you made all week!"

Reminds me of a really good "Davism". After one game, a coach said to Dave, "that's the worst officiated game ever!" Dave replied, "no, coach - that would be impossible. It's too much of a coincidence that the worst officiated game ever and the worst coached game ever could happen at the same time."