A shoe in the hand is worth 2 in the bush?

[M&M Guy]

Ok, here's something I saw near the end of last night's Cincinnati/Xavier game (well, at least what I saw of the game in between showing every possible camera angle of Bob Huggins in the stands... )

Rebound by Cincy under Xavier's basket, Xavier player loses his shoe - I believe it was just stepped on by another player. Player picks up his shoe, and goes on down the court to play defense, because he doesn't want to stop and put it back on and leave his teammates with 4 on defense. Gets back on defense, and almost knocks the ball away with the shoe in his hand! In fact, he's right next to the Cincy player as a teammate ties up the Cincy player for a held ball.

Let's say he would've knocked the ball away with the shoe - violation? Or play on? If violation, which rule applies? I just want to get right to the heart and sole of the matter.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
Ok, here's something I saw near the end of last night's Cincinnati/Xavier game (well, at least what I saw of the game in between showing every possible camera angle of Bob Huggins in the stands... )

Rebound by Cincy under Xavier's basket, Xavier player loses his shoe - I believe it was just stepped on by another player. Player picks up his shoe, and goes on down the court to play defense, because he doesn't want to stop and put it back on and leave his teammates with 4 on defense. Gets back on defense, and almost knocks the ball away with the shoe in his hand! In fact, he's right next to the Cincy player as a teammate ties up the Cincy player for a held ball.

Let's say he would've knocked the ball away with the shoe - violation? Or play on? If violation, which rule applies? I just want to get right to the heart and sole of the matter.

Invoke that baseball rule that sez a fielder can't throw his glove at a batted ball...put the batter on 3rd.

Other than that I'm not sure what to do here, but I can't imagine how this violates anything written in the book. Clearly 2-3 comes into play though.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
If violation, which rule applies? I just want to get right to the heart and sole of the matter.

That must have arched some eyebrows. Is it a violation to just shoo the ball away? Conversely, you'd feel like a real heel if you stepped all over this one.

Z

[SamIAm]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
Ok, here's something I saw near the end of last night's Cincinnati/Xavier game (well, at least what I saw of the game in between showing every possible camera angle of Bob Huggins in the stands... )

Rebound by Cincy under Xavier's basket, Xavier player loses his shoe - I believe it was just stepped on by another player. Player picks up his shoe, and goes on down the court to play defense, because he doesn't want to stop and put it back on and leave his teammates with 4 on defense. Gets back on defense, and almost knocks the ball away with the shoe in his hand! In fact, he's right next to the Cincy player as a teammate ties up the Cincy player for a held ball.

Let's say he would've knocked the ball away with the shoe - violation? Or play on? If violation, which rule applies? I just want to get right to the heart and sole of the matter.

Sounds like a kick to me )

Blow the the play dead as soon as he starts to participate with the shoe in his hand. Cincy ball OOB.

[Edited by SamIAm on Jan 20th, 2006 at 11:17 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
at least what I saw of the game in between showing every possible camera angle of Bob Huggins in the stands...

Oh, but we need to fawn over Bob, and he just loves all those kids and how hard they've worked. . . barf.

Let's say he would've knocked the ball away with the shoe - violation? Or play on? If violation, which rule applies?

Obviously, he's playing with equipment that is not being used in the manner intended (3-5-3). But there's no penalty listed that I can see. The referee is simply not supposed to allow him to play. So if he hit the ball with his shoe, you have two choices:

1) Call a kicking violation. Since you're allowing him to play, he must be wearing the shoe properly, which means it must be on his foot. Ok, that's a stretch.

2) Stop the game, and sub him out for not wearing the equipment correctly. Resume at the POI, which is with the offense still in control of the ball.

I just want to get right to the heart and sole of the matter.

Grooooooan!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by zebraman
Conversely, you'd feel like a real heel if you stepped all over this one.

Z

Oh, man. Double grooooooooan!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Rebound by Cincy under Xavier's basket, Xavier player loses his shoe - I believe it was just stepped on by another player. Player picks up his shoe, and goes on down the court to play defense, because he doesn't want to stop and put it back on and leave his teammates with 4 on defense. Gets back on defense, and almost knocks the ball away with the shoe in his hand! In fact, he's right next to the Cincy player as a teammate ties up the Cincy player for a held ball.

Let's say he would've knocked the ball away with the shoe - violation? Or play on? If violation, which rule applies? I just want to get right to the heart and sole of the matter.

Illegal as per NCAA rule 3-7-8- "Any equipment that is unnatural and is designed to increase a player's height or reach, or to gain an unfair advantage shall be prohibited".

Close enough for me though. I don't know whether I'd call that a violation or a "T" though. I'd leave that up to the R- I'd become the U2 in a hurry.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Obviously, he's playing with equipment that is not being used in the manner intended (3-5-3).

Wha?

In my book 3-5-3 says Game jerseys shall be tucked in the game pants.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Illegal as per NCAA rule 3-7-8- "Any equipment that is unnatural and is designed to increase a player's height or reach, or to gain an unfair advantage shall be prohibited".

OK, that's more like it.

Close enough for me though. I don't know whether I'd call that a violation or a "T" though. I'd leave that up to the R- I'd become the U2 in a hurry.

T or violation based on what rule?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

OK, that's more like it.

T or violation based on what rule?

Don't ask me. Ask the R.

If he made contact with the shoe, I'd call a violation. I'd use 2-3 for the first time in my life too. Can't let him get away with any kind of advantage.

Unless of course we consider the hand to be a part of the shoe.....

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 20th, 2006 at 11:33 AM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Don't ask me. Ask the R.

LOL

Good idea! Hey, this seems like a good time to go check if there are any broken light bulbs on the scoreboard.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

T or violation based on what rule?
[/B][/QUOTE]Don't ask me. Ask the R. [/B][/QUOTE]

LOL

Good idea! Hey, this seems like a good time to go check if there are any broken light bulbs on the scoreboard. [/B][/QUOTE]Go back and read the amended post.

It asks that pithy question "Is the hand part of the shoe?"

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Don't ask me. Ask the R.

That's exactly what I was thinkin'. I was sitting there watching it, going "Thank gawd he didn't actually hit the ball", then thinking about the conference that would ensue if he did.

When they showed the replay, the player wasn't using the shoe for extra reach, etc.; it was planted firmly in the middle of his hand. I first thought about NCAA 3-7-8 as well, but he wasn't gaining any obvious advantage. I could see that if he was holding the heel, and pointing the toe at the defender like a sword, for example. But he was using his arms and hands in normal defensive mode for those few moments of play; it's just that there was a shoe in his hand at the time.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
In my book 3-5-3 says Game jerseys shall be tucked in the game pants.

I was using the closest book I had, which is a HS book, and an old one at that. Both my current books are in my bag. So shoot me (or is that "thou shalt shoot me?).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
[/B]

When they showed the replay, the player wasn't using the shoe for extra reach, etc.; it was planted firmly in the middle of his hand. I first thought about NCAA 3-7-8 as well, but he wasn't gaining any obvious advantage. I could see that if he was holding the heel, and pointing the toe at the defender like a sword, for example. But he was using his arms and hands in normal defensive mode for those few moments of play; it's just that there was a shoe in his hand at the time. [/B][/QUOTE]Easy one in NFHS. Case book play 3.5SitA tells us that one criteria to be applied is that the equipment used is supposed to be appropriate for basketball. That's why we don't let players wear gloves for instance, which are specifically mentioned as a no-no in that case play. It's also why we wouldn't let 'em wear shoes as gloves either. Use the same thinking for NCAA- if there isn't already something in their rules already resembling the FED philosophy.