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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 01:40am
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Question

Folks,

As I continue to adapt to the 3-person, I've noticed something come up a few times recently I'd like your takes on.

After years of being taught to get very deep as lead in 2-man, I'm now being taught to stay fairly close to the end line as lead in 3-person, especially when I'm wide. That's fair enough. But I'm feeling a little too close to the players, and there's evidence that I am. To wit:

--A couple of weeks back, I had several fouls on the shot on the baseline, right in front of me. In many of those cases, the coach was hollering that the shooter walked first. Maybe she did and maybe she didn't...I was focused high and missed her feet. If I were deeper, I could see both high and low, and make that no-travel call more confidently.

--Tonight, similarly, I had a coach come unglued because he felt his player, a baseline shooter, was undercut. It's possible the coach was full of it...the player didn't go to the floor as a truly undercut player would. But the point is, I was close to the players and focused up high, and therefore didn't know what was happening below the players' bellies. A player -could- have gotten away with low contact, and I therefore didn't have much to say to him when we had our inevitable chat.

With these plays in mind, some questions:

--What is the rationale for having the lead close to the end line in 3-person? Why wouldn't the same advantages of being deep as lead in 2-person apply in 3-person?

--If I'm supposed to be up close, should a partner (maybe T) keep an eye on post's feet?

--Am I making some other error in positioning that is causing me to have this problem? When I'm wide (out by the 3-point line), I'm cozied up by the end line. If I head to closedown, I'm about 3 feet off the line. For most of the no-calls listed above, I was somewhere in-between, getting myself a view of some daylight between the baseline player and her defender.

--Does anyone else have this problem? Or is it just me?

Thanks for the patience with this long post.

--BRG
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 02:05am
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excellent post, excellent questions

What you have detailed are the starting positions for the Lead when nothing special is happening. However, once you have a play in your area to take care of, you need to position yourself so that you obtain the best possible look at the play.

If you have two players close to the end line even way out wide near the 3 pt arc, then you need to step off the end line (get some depth) so that you can see the up and the down. The contact up high that you need to decide on foul or no foul as well as having a look at the feet for traveling or stepping OOB are both important.

So you need to not be so rigid with your positioning. What you have been taught is only the starting positioning. You need to adapt it to the action that you are trying to officiate. That is a very important concept that is often missed with newer officials.

Lastly, yes, part of the T's job is to help with traveling by the post players. Those players are normally tall and it is often difficult for the Lead to see travels on these players while having to look up in order to judge contact situations. Depth is not always an option as the Lead on many courts! This is why you have been taught to work wide. If you can't get deep, sometimes you can compensate for that by working wide and this will give you a similar vantage point.


I hope that helps you.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 09:44am
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In response to the part about the baseline shooter,if he took the shot from your primary, and you were on-ball, it's your responsibility to take the shooter up and bring him back down, not the trail's. After you are sure the shooter is cleared, then you can turn your attention to rebounding.

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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 10:32am
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Quote:
Originally posted by FrankHtown
In response to the part about the baseline shooter,if he took the shot from your primary, and you were on-ball, it's your responsibility to take the shooter up and bring him back down, not the trail's.
That's true, Frank. But BRG's problem is that he's having trouble seeing the shooter all the way to the floor b/c he's too close to the shooter and defender. When you get close to the bodies, you can only see the upper half of them. So the question is: should he take a step or two back, away from the endline; or should he officiate the contact up high and have the Trail officiate any lower body contact?

I vote for the former. Take a step or two back if you can. If you can't, then try to work a little wider, although this may put you at a bad angle to see through the play. So you wouldn't do it in that case.

I think it's better to be a little bit off the end line. I know at a couple I've been to, they expect to be right on the end line. But you know how they say to take what works and throw the rest away. . .?
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 11:05am
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Ok..I agree, take a step or two back, because if the Trail is doing his/her job, and sees the lead is on-ball, they won't be watching the shooter either (supposedly!!). So, it will be up to the lead to watch up high and down low.

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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BloggingRefGuy

--Am I making some other error in positioning that is causing me to have this problem? When I'm wide (out by the 3-point line), I'm cozied up by the end line. If I head to closedown, I'm about 3 feet off the line. For

--BRG
What mechanics are you using? I was taught as lead never, in a half cour offense, to get wider than halfway between the lane and the 3 point arc. If there is a matchup in that corner, I open up to see the play, but I really leave more of that area in the corner to the T. I'm only there to help. If the matchup is beyond the 3 point arc, I don't even look. That is certainly the T. Also, I do go deeper as L in 3 man. I was taught, especially on rebounding to take a couple steps back after a shot, much like closing down when you are C or T.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
I know at a couple [of camps] I've been to, they expect [you] to be right on the end line. But you know how they say to take what works and throw the rest away. . .?
Is that what you meant or were you having tea with some friends?
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 01:31pm
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As far as the comments about going no further than halfway between the 3 point line and the nearest lane line. I totally disagree. I say if you are at lead stay in line with the ball. I was taught to go as far as within 2 feet of the three point line, because from there you can open up real easily. And secondly if you stay at half and half and drive starts wider than you, then you have an inside-out view which is almost always bad because when your head whips around and puts you back in outside-in view you are too late to see that defender setting up for a charge.

As far as player going up right next to you. I am a big advocate of staying near the baseline except on "pinch the paint" type plays which come down the middle or opposite side of the paint from the Lead. Once again I say stay in-line with the ball. If it is in the corner, go setup within two feet of the 3 point line(this is also dependent on whether you have post play or not. It is relevant to whether your feel for the game tells you that this will be a one on one play to the hole and that there will be no post player to feel that vacant post spot. This is where your knowledge for the game and feel for the game comes in) and when he drives it will give you ample time to get that good outside-in view that you are looking for. Right when the player drives by you, you then need to employ what is known as "walking through the drive". Stay abuout one step behind the dribbler, following him and the defender to the basket, so you can see through the play and still pick up both players at full view and just not up top.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 01:47pm
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RefTn,
If you are getting that wide, aren't you taking away the major advantage of having the lead officiating post play? I was taught, and practice, staying in the post area as lead. To me having that area officiated at all times is the #1 advantage of 3 man.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 02:05pm
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You are right junker, and I threw the "feel for the game" in there as that specific purpose. If you are going to do what I proposed, you have to pregame this, or you just have to know that this is a designed play or that this kid is taking the ball one on one. I know the NFHS says that if it starts outside the three point line that it is the Lead's play, but there is no way I am giving way to the lead, when the play starts at the 3 point line in the corner and the dribbler drives and puts the defender on his hip(the dribbler is closest to me), and I know that the play is closest to me and that I easily have the best look, because of where the defender is in relation to the trail. As anyone knows on here I am partial to the NBA ways of doing things, and in this situation, NBA referees are almost always in the right position to make a call so in this play you will see the C reffing away screens to open a player up to that vacant post spot, T move way onto the floor almost even with the nearest lane line, and the L has the ball.

Like I said though it has to be pregamed or your "feel" and knowledge of the game has to tell you that there will be no post play on this play in order to do it this way. I do think that this play in particular is one of the hardest plays to referee using NFHS mechanics, cause if this is the T's play all the way to the hole and it is right in the L's face and he is a good partner and only calls the must and leaves the rest to the T, then I believe you get this play wrong more than half the time.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 02:14pm
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Bottom line is to go where you need to go to ref the play... if you need to step back (deeper) on the baseline in order to see the play, then do so - just step back to the "correct" positioning after that play is over...the "correct" positioning guidelines are just that - guidelines, go where you need to go to see the play and then move back within the guidelines.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 02:27pm
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Lead

I was taught that the lead should be half way between the 3 point line and the free throw lane line. Normally in 2 person mechanic we are very wide on the lead due to more area to cover. BUT, in the SEC if a play is down in the corner where the lead is, we are expected to Referee that play. But in FED, the trail has that play. So you can go wrong being halfway in between. Just remember to close down and/or rotate as the ball swing and rests on the other side.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 03:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
Bottom line is to go where you need to go to ref the play...
Ding, ding, ding, ding!!! No more callers, please. We have a winner.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 06:17pm
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Thanks, everyone.

This leaves only one of my questions unanswered:

If it's so much to our advantage to get deep as lead, why are we encouraged to be shallow as lead on a 3-person crew? I don't get it.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2006, 06:46pm
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I rarely if never go deep. I feel you don't have to step off the baseline anymore then 4 feet to get a good angle. It is all about how you set yourself up initially, so that you can recieve the play properly that dictates whether you can get a good look or not, but once again it is all in how you were taught and if you feel comfortable being really far off the playing surface to get better looks and no one says anything about it, then do whatever you feel gets you the best look. I also caution you to start doing two things at two different positions because one is happening at the college level right now and the other is happening at the NBA level and are bound to trickle down.

1)You are going to want to stay near the baseline at L because that is what they are teaching now.

2)At slot you are going to want to stay high which means working from the free throw line up to a little higher than tip of circle. NBA just recently started employing this. They feel if you stay up instead of dropping down to bottom tip of circle that you as a whole have more open looks.

I tell you this because it will be here sooner than later.
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