The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 05:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis Missouri
Posts: 308
Send a message via AIM to fonzzy07
In my recent rec league games I have been having a problem adjusting to the game speed. This is mainly because the age levels are so mixed up. For example yesterday I had 3 games at one gym, a third grade, then a 7th, and finnaly a 5th grade game. All of these games have much diffrent paces, and I find it hard for me to adjust. Any suggestions.

[Edited by fonzzy07 on Jan 15th, 2006 at 05:53 PM]
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 06:20pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,581
Stop working those games. Unless you need the money or you cannot work any other level of games, stop working those little kid games. If you want to advance and get go further in your HS career or college career, leave those games alone. I know someone is going to complain because I said this and claim that is not good advice. Most officials I know that have advanced through the HS ranks and got to the college level do not work any of these games or stopped working these games years ago. All these games can do is teach you how to blow a whistle. These games are not for you to learn a lot of things from them. If you are struggling with speed of the game, you have to decide what kind of games you ultimately want to work. If you do not want to work these games for the rest of your life, then put more of an effort in working the levels you will eventually see. For example if you want to work HS and advance far in HS, work only HS. You could also throw in some college games if you want to get better as well.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 06:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis Missouri
Posts: 308
Send a message via AIM to fonzzy07
JRutledge

Thanks for the suggestion JRutledge the only problem is that i am only a junior in highschool. I do do some 7th and 8 th grade games but i dont no where else to go to get more of those, I only get like 2 a week.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 06:43pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,581
Then at this point you might have to deal with it. Unless there are rules against you working HS ball (in some states it is allowed in your situation), maybe concentrate on one type of ball. Usually there is a big difference between 7th/8th grade game than working 5th and 6th grade game. Then concentrate on the highest level below HS if you cannot work HS games and go from there. I say this because if you are struggling with the speed now, you really are going to have a hard time when you start to work HS games. Other than that I do not know of any special techniques that work that really are going to make that big of a difference to adjusting to the speed of the game. Maybe someone else has some technique but other than concentrating on a certain age level, I do not know what you could do.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 06:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,674
Work as many games at whatever level you can, any other advice is total BS.

You can learn from ANY game experience if you approach it the right way.

Game speeds will change even if you are doing HS varsity or college ball, based on the teams involved, so working the different ages is not a hindrance.

Approach the games the same way, getting a feel for the change in speed comes with working more games, and you will find that it will eventually come down to just a trip or two down the floor to adjust.

Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 07:47pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,581
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Work as many games at whatever level you can, any other advice is total BS.

You can learn from ANY game experience if you approach it the right way.

Game speeds will change even if you are doing HS varsity or college ball, based on the teams involved, so working the different ages is not a hindrance.

Approach the games the same way, getting a feel for the change in speed comes with working more games, and you will find that it will eventually come down to just a trip or two down the floor to adjust.

The question was not whether you can learn things from all levels. The question was how you adjust to different speeds of basketball. When you work games that are more inline with what you want to work, it is a lot easier to adjust to the slight speed changes from a top level to another.

Also, I will adamantly disagree with working all levels you can learn something. I do not think anyone can seriously learn from a Men's League, where no organized offense or defense is run. I do not think a lot of officials that want to use proper mechanics or procedures working a lot of JH and non-school leagues learn a lot. Mainly because fellow officials tend to cut corners and you do not always follow the same procedures that you will when you work a HS game with a uniformed governing body.

I know too many young officials that all of a sudden got better when they left the Men's Leagues and JH games alone. Why, because they finally had to call things and deal with people that required more from them. Working Men's Leagues and JH games can be a complete mixed bag from one site to another.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 08:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Work as many games at whatever level you can, any other advice is total BS.

You can learn from ANY game experience if you approach it the right way.

Game speeds will change even if you are doing HS varsity or college ball, based on the teams involved, so working the different ages is not a hindrance.

Approach the games the same way, getting a feel for the change in speed comes with working more games, and you will find that it will eventually come down to just a trip or two down the floor to adjust.

The question was not whether you can learn things from all levels. The question was how you adjust to different speeds of basketball. When you work games that are more inline with what you want to work, it is a lot easier to adjust to the slight speed changes from a top level to another.

Also, I will adamantly disagree with working all levels you can learn something. I do not think anyone can seriously learn from a Men's League, where no organized offense or defense is run. I do not think a lot of officials that want to use proper mechanics or procedures working a lot of JH and non-school leagues learn a lot. Mainly because fellow officials tend to cut corners and you do not always follow the same procedures that you will when you work a HS game with a uniformed governing body.

I know too many young officials that all of a sudden got better when they left the Men's Leagues and JH games alone. Why, because they finally had to call things and deal with people that required more from them. Working Men's Leagues and JH games can be a complete mixed bag from one site to another.

Peace
Yeah and them doing all those game had no impact on them getting better.

You learn more game management skills in a couple of nights of men's league than an entire season of high school ball. That makes you better.

Older youth rec ball and better men's leagues are just as fast paced and have players that can run the same offenses and defenses that you see in a HS game.

I've worked plenty of games where every player played past high school, with most playing D1, with several current and former NBA players. I'm sure those games were just hacks running around not having a clue what they are doing.

Officials should be the ones expecting more from themselves not those assigning them the games. An official that wants to get better and do things the right way can do that at any level of game, and it is not just dependant on if that game is HS or above.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 08:49pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,581
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Yeah and them doing all those game had no impact on them getting better.

You learn more game management skills in a couple of nights of men's league than an entire season of high school ball. That makes you better.
So I can learn that I can get curse out by players, threatened on a regular basis and I learned how to handle games better? Then when players do that in a Men's League, they pay $10 and they can return to the league after being thrown out of a game. If a HS or college player did the same thing, they would be ejected from the league, likely suspended from any HS sport for the rest of the year, but an adult pays a small fine and he can play in the league next week. You are right, that is a lot of learning going on. Usually what most learn is to stop doing them. The people I know that work those games only do it for the money and admit to getting lazy when working. You are right; you can learn something from those games.

Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Older youth rec ball and better men's leagues are just as fast paced and have players that can run the same offenses and defenses that you see in a HS game.
Whatever you say.

Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
I've worked plenty of games where every player played past high school, with most playing D1, with several current and former NBA players. I'm sure those games were just hacks running around not having a clue what they are doing.
Noticed you said the word "former." I know a lot of players that got to a certain level at one point in their life and were not considered good players. Or they cannot play anymore. Just because you were "once" something, does not mean you are "something" today. So yes, I have officiating adults that were "once" something and could not play anymore. Maybe that is why they "once" played at those levels.

Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Officials should be the ones expecting more from themselves not those assigning them the games. An official that wants to get better and do things the right way can do that at any level of game, and it is not just dependant on if that game is HS or above.
They should but they don't. Officials "should" do a lot of things, but we all know what we expect is not going to always happen. A lot of officials do not officiate for the same reasons and many officials all do not claim to work for the same reason that you and many others that come here officiate. In a meeting I was at today we talked about how a lot of officials do the bear minimum to get by.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 09:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Yeah and them doing all those game had no impact on them getting better.

You learn more game management skills in a couple of nights of men's league than an entire season of high school ball. That makes you better.
So I can learn that I can get curse out by players, threatened on a regular basis and I learned how to handle games better? Then when players do that in a Men's League, they pay $10 and they can return to the league after being thrown out of a game. If a HS or college player did the same thing, they would be ejected from the league, likely suspended from any HS sport for the rest of the year, but an adult pays a small fine and he can play in the league next week. You are right, that is a lot of learning going on. Usually what most learn is to stop doing them. The people I know that work those games only do it for the money and admit to getting lazy when working. You are right; you can learn something from those games.

Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Older youth rec ball and better men's leagues are just as fast paced and have players that can run the same offenses and defenses that you see in a HS game.
Whatever you say.

Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
I've worked plenty of games where every player played past high school, with most playing D1, with several current and former NBA players. I'm sure those games were just hacks running around not having a clue what they are doing.
Noticed you said the word "former." I know a lot of players that got to a certain level at one point in their life and were not considered good players. Or they cannot play anymore. Just because you were "once" something, does not mean you are "something" today. So yes, I have officiating adults that were "once" something and could not play anymore. Maybe that is why they "once" played at those levels.

Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Officials should be the ones expecting more from themselves not those assigning them the games. An official that wants to get better and do things the right way can do that at any level of game, and it is not just dependant on if that game is HS or above.
They should but they don't. Officials "should" do a lot of things, but we all know what we expect is not going to always happen. A lot of officials do not officiate for the same reasons and many officials all do not claim to work for the same reason that you and many others that come here officiate. In a meeting I was at today we talked about how a lot of officials do the bear minimum to get by.

Peace
The good officials don't get cursed at or threatened repeatedly because THEY LEARN THE SKILLS TO HANDLE THOSE SITUATIONS.

I see your comprehension skills are as good as ever. Read it again and it says CURRENT and former NBA players. Based on your argument your average high school player is better than Jordan, since he's a former player.

Officials that take short cuts in youth, rec and MS games will take short cuts in HS games too, it still depends on the official. They won't magically transform into JRut...thank God.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 09:39pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,581
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
The good officials don't get cursed at or threatened repeatedly because THEY LEARN THE SKILLS TO HANDLE THOSE SITUATIONS.
So are you telling me that all the stories I read about officials being assulted or being attacked are the official's fault because they did not handle the situation properly?

I see your comprehension skills are as good as ever. Read it again and it says CURRENT and former NBA players. Based on your argument your average high school player is better than Jordan, since he's a former player.[/B][/QUOTE]

Unless you are working some Pro-Am, not sure how great that could be. Even the Pro-Am leagues that have current NBA players and some college players are very good, but those are not what I would call a Men's League. Those leagues have structure and rules in place that are the same thing as working a college or HS game.

Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Officials that take short cuts in youth, rec and MS games will take short cuts in HS games too, it still depends on the official. They won't magically transform into JRut...thank God.
Of course they take short cuts. Working a HS game usually requires a license (which requires a test, background checks, and camp participation as an example). Working a Men's League or even a JH game requires nothing but a striped shirt, whistle and the ability to walk. A lot of officials that work Men's leagues do not work anything else. An official trying to get better might run into one of these guys and not switch, not use proper reporting techniques let alone signal mechanics. Then when this young official gets in front of an assignor or an evaluator that might have great influence over their career holds them back from where they might want to go.

Once again, we all have a right to our opinion. Either way it goes this conversation was about the speed of the game and adjusting to it, not which league you can learn from or not learn from.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 09:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 74
Fonzzy,

I understand your concern. I'm new to officiating myself and it's hard for me too to switch between different levels of play in a single day (3rd grade, 7th grade, 5th grade). Likewise, sometimes the rules are different between grades (For 3rd grade, over-and-back is OK, there's no stealing, no pressing, no double teaming, etc.)

Also, for 3rd graders, you sometimes don't call much of anything because if you started calling things, you'd be blowing your whistle every 3 seconds (travel, double dribble, foul, etc.) In 7th, you call everything.

When you say "speed of the game," do you mean running speed up and down the court or the fact that things happen much more quickly in 7th grade than they do in 3rd or 5th?

I guess in either case I've found that it's helpful to mentally prepare yourself between games for the next game. Also, if you're working with someone else, talk to him/her about what you'll be focusing on, what you'll emphasize, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 10:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
The good officials don't get cursed at or threatened repeatedly because THEY LEARN THE SKILLS TO HANDLE THOSE SITUATIONS.
So are you telling me that all the stories I read about officials being assulted or being attacked are the official's fault because they did not handle the situation properly?

I see your comprehension skills are as good as ever. Read it again and it says CURRENT and former NBA players. Based on your argument your average high school player is better than Jordan, since he's a former player.
Unless you are working some Pro-Am, not sure how great that could be. Even the Pro-Am leagues that have current NBA players and some college players are very good, but those are not what I would call a Men's League. Those leagues have structure and rules in place that are the same thing as working a college or HS game.

Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Officials that take short cuts in youth, rec and MS games will take short cuts in HS games too, it still depends on the official. They won't magically transform into JRut...thank God.
Of course they take short cuts. Working a HS game usually requires a license (which requires a test, background checks, and camp participation as an example). Working a Men's League or even a JH game requires nothing but a striped shirt, whistle and the ability to walk. A lot of officials that work Men's leagues do not work anything else. An official trying to get better might run into one of these guys and not switch, not use proper reporting techniques let alone signal mechanics. Then when this young official gets in front of an assignor or an evaluator that might have great influence over their career holds them back from where they might want to go.

Once again, we all have a right to our opinion. Either way it goes this conversation was about the speed of the game and adjusting to it, not which league you can learn from or not learn from.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

Yet your immediate response was don't work those games, real helpful.

The level, whatever it is, will have changes of game speed from game to game within that level. You don't have to go from 5th graders to 8th graders or 8th grade to HS varsity for there to be a jump in game speed.

You can have a smaller classification one night and two top HS teams the next night and even though they are both HS varsity, game speed can be night and day.

Working one level won't make changes in game speed easier to handle, working a lot of games will.

Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 10:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis Missouri
Posts: 308
Send a message via AIM to fonzzy07
hooper I agree with you on those rules too. By speed of the game, i mean not only how fast things but also those rules, and what you call and what u let go. I mean if i do a 7th grade game I'm calling everything, but then going to third grade, I better not call everything.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 10:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 27
For the last ten years I have worked city ball, adult & 5th - 8th grade. My last child graduated and then I started doing High School Ball. First year I recieved all Frosh-JV games thru December. I asked the Varsity refs for any advice and for them to rate me. 2nd Half of my first year I had mostly varsity games. This year all of my games have been varsity. Where did I learn my skills? City leauges. Don't sell the experience of working with kids and adults short. As Blindzebra said you can learn from any level ball. "BUT" You must work very hard. Always aproach each game as if it is a playoff game. Don't shortcut, don't whine, just learn. You will get more floor time in one city leauge season than you will in your first two years of High School ball.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2006, 10:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally posted by fonzzy07
hooper I agree with you on those rules too. By speed of the game, i mean not only how fast things but also those rules, and what you call and what u let go. I mean if i do a 7th grade game I'm calling everything, but then going to third grade, I better not call everything.
Yea, it's a tough gig. I think that 3rd graders are often much harder than 7th or 8th graders because you're a coach on the floor as much as a ref. It's easy to forget to be in "official" mode when you're tying someone's shoe or telling kids where to go during a timeout or explaining over and over what a travel is.

If then, 15 minutes later you're working with 7th graders, it's a big shift.

When going from 3rd to 7th, I remind myself that I need to call EVERYTHING so I try to be quick with the whistle just to get myself into the older kid mode. (That usually puts me on track.) If you ask most coaches or youth league coordinators, they'll tell you that they'd rather that you call more fouls than fewer (expect for maybe at 3/4th and below).

Also, I keep a copy of the particular grade-level rules in my bag and read through it quickly before the next game - just to jog my memory.

Good luck!




Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:12pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1