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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2006, 11:03am
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Question

A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting. The foul causes the ball to come out of A1's hands. Still on the way up (in the act of shooting), A1 repossesses the ball in midair (the ball has not touched the ground) and puts the ball in the basket.

Does the basket count because A1 was still in the act of shooting, or does the ball become dead in this case when the ball is knocked loose from A1's control?

Rule reference if you have it, please!
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2006, 11:08am
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" The foul causes the ball to come out of A1's hands. Still on the way up (in the act of shooting), A1 repossesses the ball in midair (the ball has not touched the ground) and puts the ball in the basket."

The ball touching the floor is just one way the try ends. It also ends when it's certain the throw is unsuccessful. The shot ended when he lost control of the ball.

4-41-4
The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 03:10pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
" The foul causes the ball to come out of A1's hands. Still on the way up (in the act of shooting), A1 repossesses the ball in midair (the ball has not touched the ground) and puts the ball in the basket."

The ball touching the floor is just one way the try ends. It also ends when it's certain the throw is unsuccessful. The shot ended when he lost control of the ball.

4-41-4
The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.
I don't get what you are saying. You just explained what has to happen for a try to end and in this case none of those are present. The kid regains possession in midair therefore it is NOT certain that the try has ended, and since he ragains in midair and is still considered in the act of shooting he can finish the play. This is just like a kid going in for a lay-up, getting hit on the arm, fumbling the ball and still putting it in the hole.

Count the basket and shoot one FT.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
" The foul causes the ball to come out of A1's hands. Still on the way up (in the act of shooting), A1 repossesses the ball in midair (the ball has not touched the ground) and puts the ball in the basket."

The ball touching the floor is just one way the try ends. It also ends when it's certain the throw is unsuccessful. The shot ended when he lost control of the ball.

4-41-4
The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.
I don't get what you are saying. You just explained what has to happen for a try to end and in this case none of those are present. The kid regains possession in midair therefore it is NOT certain that the try has ended, and since he ragains in midair and is still considered in the act of shooting he can finish the play. This is just like a kid going in for a lay-up, getting hit on the arm, fumbling the ball and still putting it in the hole.

Count the basket and shoot one FT.
The ball is dead when A1 loses it.

Let's say that A1 drives, gets fouled by B1, the shot goes up and B2 blocks it and it goes back to A1 who shoots it AGAIN, gonna count that one too?

Or A1 is fouled, releases the ball and A2 puts it in, is that a good basket and one?
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 04:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
" The foul causes the ball to come out of A1's hands. Still on the way up (in the act of shooting), A1 repossesses the ball in midair (the ball has not touched the ground) and puts the ball in the basket."

The ball touching the floor is just one way the try ends. It also ends when it's certain the throw is unsuccessful. The shot ended when he lost control of the ball.

4-41-4
The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.
I don't get what you are saying. You just explained what has to happen for a try to end and in this case none of those are present. The kid regains possession in midair therefore it is NOT certain that the try has ended, and since he ragains in midair and is still considered in the act of shooting he can finish the play. This is just like a kid going in for a lay-up, getting hit on the arm, fumbling the ball and still putting it in the hole.

Count the basket and shoot one FT.
A try ends when it is certain that it won't go in, by rule(4-19-4). When A1 grabbed the ball again after it was knocked out of his hands, it sureasheck was certain that the first try couldn't go in; iow the original try ended at that point. The ball also became dead when that try ended because of the foul. When A1 put it up again, he was putting a dead ball in the basket.

And yes, if a kid going in for a lay-up is hit on the arm, fumled the ball and then shot after recovering the fumble, that throw with a dead ball is no good either. His original "try" ended with the fumble caused by the foul.

Completely wrong interpretation, RefTN. Gotta know those definitions.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 14th, 2006 at 04:10 PM]
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 04:42pm
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Sorry NBA rule.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 04:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
Sorry NBA rule.
Huh? Tony listed the FED rule, you quoted it and said he was wrong, but you were thinking of the NBA rule? Seems strange, but ...

What is the NBA rule on this?
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 06:20pm
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Let's back up and define the correct terms.

First of all, remember what consitutes how the foul will be deal with: that would be "act of shooting." The "act of shooting" is not dependant upon the definition of "try", as it could be a "tap" as well. The act of shooting begins with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight... (4.41.1)

Notice, it didn't say, "ends when the try ends." Thus, when the try ends isn't relevent for this exercise.

You have to ask yourself, "was the ball clearly in flight"? If he can still grab it, I'd say "no," thus he's still in the act of shooting and if the ball goes in, count the basket and award one shot. This is going to be a tough sell, but you must choose your words carefully. "Coach, he was still in the act of shooting." Besides, for this to happen, it will happen so fast that I don't think it will be questioned.

The situation on a blocked shot coming back to A is a case of the ball clearly being in flight. Thus, the act of shooting had ended and it isn't applicable to this discussion.
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 06:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Let's back up and define the correct terms.

First of all, remember what consitutes how the foul will be deal with: that would be "act of shooting." The "act of shooting" is not dependant upon the definition of "try", as it could be a "tap" as well. The act of shooting begins with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight... (4.41.1)

Notice, it didn't say, "ends when the try ends." Thus, when the try ends isn't relevent for this exercise.

You have to ask yourself, "was the ball clearly in flight"? If he can still grab it, I'd say "no," thus he's still in the act of shooting and if the ball goes in, count the basket and award one shot. This is going to be a tough sell, but you must choose your words carefully. "Coach, he was still in the act of shooting." Besides, for this to happen, it will happen so fast that I don't think it will be questioned.

The situation on a blocked shot coming back to A is a case of the ball clearly being in flight. Thus, the act of shooting had ended and it isn't applicable to this discussion.
In flight means OUT OF THE HANDS.
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 06:43pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Let's back up and define the correct terms.

First of all, remember what consitutes how the foul will be deal with: that would be "act of shooting." The "act of shooting" is not dependant upon the definition of "try", as it could be a "tap" as well. The act of shooting begins with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight... (4.41.1)

Notice, it didn't say, "ends when the try ends." Thus, when the try ends isn't relevent for this exercise.

You have to ask yourself, "was the ball clearly in flight"? If he can still grab it, I'd say "no," thus he's still in the act of shooting and if the ball goes in, count the basket and award one shot. This is going to be a tough sell, but you must choose your words carefully. "Coach, he was still in the act of shooting." Besides, for this to happen, it will happen so fast that I don't think it will be questioned.

The situation on a blocked shot coming back to A is a case of the ball clearly being in flight. Thus, the act of shooting had ended and it isn't applicable to this discussion.
Lah me.

Howinthe heck can you say the ball was not clearly in flight when the original post said that "the foul causes the ball to come OUT of A1's hands"?. The "act of shooting" ended with the ball in flight. Rule 4-41-1 sez so, as you cited yourself above. How can you possibly say that he's still in the act of shooting then?

You're contradicting yourself, Tex. You're also completely wrong if you'd count that basket. If he grabs the ball that's knocked loose and puts it up again, he's now in his second act of shooting and his second try.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 07:34pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
Sorry NBA rule.
Huh? Tony listed the FED rule, you quoted it and said he was wrong, but you were thinking of the NBA rule? Seems strange, but ...

What is the NBA rule on this?
Here is a play from the NBA casebook.

Player A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and the ball becomes loose. Player A1 is able to continue his shooting motion after being fouled and the basket is successful. Should 2 points be scored?

Ruling: Yes. Player A1 is credited with 2 points and will attempt one FT. Any player who can score a basket in the same motion after being fouled and having the ball knocked loose shall be credited with the basket.

Now that I think about it and after hearing Tex. I am counting this basket. whether it be any level.

Jurassic it is just hard to believe that if a kid gets hit while in his habitual shooting motion for a lay-up, and fumbles the ball that you are not counting it if he regains it and finishes the shot.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 07:49pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refTN
[/B]
Jurassic it is just hard to believe that if a kid gets hit while in his habitual shooting motion for a lay-up, and fumbles the ball that you are not counting it if he regains it and finishes the shot. [/B][/QUOTE]RefTN, I find it very easy to believe that you would count it.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 08:03pm
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Loose or "out of his hands" does not necessarily equal "clearly in flight." What if the ball goes in a downward motion rather than up? In addition, the "act of shooting" definition includes the airborne shooter. The AS, by definition (4.1.1-2), is a player who has released the ball on a try...and has not returned to the floor AND is considered to be in the act of shooting. Thus, one could argue that as long as he's in the air, he can touch the ball an indefinite number of times and is still in the act of shooting.

There's nothing I stated that was even remotely contridictory.
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 08:11pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Thus, one could argue that as long as he's in the air, he can touch the ball an indefinite number of times and is still in the act of shooting.



You need to review the rule book.
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Old Sat Jan 14, 2006, 08:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Loose or "out of his hands" does not necessarily equal "clearly in flight." What if the ball goes in a downward motion rather than up? In addition, the "act of shooting" definition includes the airborne shooter. The AS, by definition (4.1.1-2), is a player who has released the ball on a try...and has not returned to the floor AND is considered to be in the act of shooting. Thus, one could argue that as long as he's in the air, he can touch the ball an indefinite number of times and is still in the act of shooting.

There's nothing I stated that was even remotely contridictory.
Then it is a try that is clearly not going in, and thus a dead ball.

You are mixing completely irrelevant rules trying to apply it to this situation. The airborne shooter is not in the rules for continuous motion nor what constitutes a try, it is only for contact on or by A1 AFTER a try has been released.

I'd call that a MAJOR contradiction.
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