varsity criticism or just helping!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by truerookie

I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you.

And by what reason should they be obligated to provide a form? While they just might have one, you'd be best served by bringing your own form for them to use or take notes as they speak. They owe nothing to you and if they're willing to offer anything, say thanks. Its tough enough to get honest and helpful feedback (other than "yeah, you looked fine") without putting up artificial barriers.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Dec 25th, 2005 at 03:46 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by truerookie
To those who commented to my post. Correct me if I am wrong here. There were two portions to the post. 1.) He asked for feedback. 2.) He did not ask for feedback. I was referring to that portion of the original post in which the poster, stated there were times when he as reflecting on his own first half and SOME varsity officials would give their advise without him asking for it. This is why I said what I said in the post. DO NOT give me any unbeseeched advise is all I am saying.

Reading comprehension is IMPORTANT!!!!

I think many of us understand what is being said here. That is not the point. If you are a rookie and you have not established yourself in this thing that is a hobby, you are not going to have a say in how people always help you. I also do not see the big deal if someone gives you advice that you did not ask for. Be happy that any advice is being given to you in the first place. I know many officials do not give a damn and will not say anything at all to you, while they see you struggle and never learn simple lessons. If you have not noticed many people here were rookies and they knew they did not know anything. If someone gives you advice, take it. I know when I was a rookie I did not care who gave me the advice. I was also the type that asked follow up questions, hung around more experienced officials to watch their games and asked more questions. I always looked at myself as being a sponge and wanted to hear as much feedback as possible. See officials like both the original poster and yourself will be the first to complain that you did not get a shot. Your interaction with veterans will determine you opportunities in the future. If you just listen and take in what is said, you just might get helped out one day be them either giving you a recommendation or bringing you along with them to bigger and better opportunities. You do not see rookies in any pro sport being respected off the bat do you? That is because they have to learn the ropes and learn what is expected of them. That does not apply to sports; it could apply to just about anything if you think about it.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by truerookie
To those who commented to my post. Correct me if I am wrong here. There were two portions to the post. 1.) He asked for feedback. 2.) He did not ask for feedback. I was referring to that portion of the original post in which the poster, stated there were times when he as reflecting on his own first half and SOME varsity officials would give their advise without him asking for it. This is why I said what I said in the post. DO NOT give me any unbeseeched advise is all I am saying.

Bull. You wrote:

"Being a second year official, I take the following approach. Do not give me advise unless you have an evaluation form in your hand."

Originally posted by truerookie
The aforemention, situation tells me two things in your area. 1). Mentorship is lacking in your area. 2). There was two young officials doing a game. If you would have had a least one varsity official with each young official doing a JV game. The situation you described would not have occurred.

I'm sorry but could you please put that on an evaluation form so that I can take it back to the association?

Actually, I'm not even going to address those comments. This isn't about the situation I witnessed. It's of no consequence, since you missed the entire point of the post anyway. We discussed some things with the JV crew between games. Unlike you, they were receptive to what was said. No form was necessary.

Again, don't waste your time on camp. Because when they chew your butt, it won't have anything to do with a form. Good luck! You're sure gonna need it.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 25th, 2005 at 05:15 PM]

[tomegun]

I think this just goes to show how SOME young officials are part of a new breed. They want to dictate how they get feedback but after 5 years, they will be EXPECTING varsity games no matter what!

I can't imagine a situation where a veteran official will go along with you telling him/her that you don't want any advice unless it is on a form.

I got to a game a few weeks ago early and the JV official was working alone. I got dressed and helped him for 3.5 quarters. At halftime he asked me what I had and I told him nothing because we were trying to work uphill because of him starting alone. After the game, he asked again and I told him two things. He argued about both of them and I told him the conversation was over. He tried to continue and I told him we were done and I had to do the pre-game for my scheduled game. I say this because regardless of delivery I think a lot of us know it is hard to give advice to young officials in this day and time.

[truerookie]

I personally, do not know any of you who post here. I made a statement from my perspective. It is not going to change anything. You have taken your position, I have taken mines. If you choose to ostracize, an individual because their views are different from yours. It is your decision.

"Worse then having an opinion is having one and not speaking it"

[lmeadski]

and, being 43 years old, I've learned about not knowing nearly as much as i thought I did. Any refs, young and old, seasoned or new, ought to be open to suggestions on how to improve. We ref because we love the game (at least, that is why i ref). I certainly don't do it for the pay!! Last words: anything another ref tells you that you already know is great reinforcement of what you are doing right. Any advice on how to improve, after you've processed it (thought about it), will only make you better. Advice is a win-win. Rock on, brothers!

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by truerookie
I personally, do not know any of you who post here. I made a statement from my perspective. It is not going to change anything. You have taken your position, I have taken mines. If you choose to ostracize, an individual because their views are different from yours. It is your decision.

"Worse then having an opinion is having one and not speaking it"

Well at least you already have the shirt when you start working at Footlocker.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by lmeadski
and, being 43 years old, I've learned about not knowing nearly as much as i thought I did. Any refs, young and old, seasoned or new, ought to be open to suggestions on how to improve. We ref because we love the game (at least, that is why i ref). I certainly don't do it for the pay!! Last words: anything another ref tells you that you already know is great reinforcement of what you are doing right. Any advice on how to improve, after you've processed it (thought about it), will only make you better. Advice is a win-win. Rock on, brothers!

And that's the best attitude to have, Ski. An attitude such as truerookie's will get back to the assignor, which isn't a good thing. OTOH, an attitude such as yours will also get back to the assignor and that's a VERY good thing.

truerookie, we didn't ostracize you, you ostracized yourself with your comments and your attitude.

LOL BZ!

[Rich]

Originally posted by truerookie
I personally, do not know any of you who post here. I made a statement from my perspective. It is not going to change anything. You have taken your position, I have taken mines. If you choose to ostracize, an individual because their views are different from yours. It is your decision.

"Worse then having an opinion is having one and not speaking it"

The problem many officials have is that they think every opinion is equal. It just isn't so. If you're a rookie and I have 20 years experience and I'm a respected official, my opinion means more than yours and the best advice you could receive is to stop acting like a jackass and listen to those who know more than you do. Like others, this is the last thing I'll say to you.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by truerookie
"Worse then having an opinion is having one and not speaking it"

Who came up with that tripe?!?! I prefer: "Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by truerookie
If you choose to ostracize, an individual because their views are different from yours. It is your decision.

It's not a matter of ostracizing someone. It's not personal either. It's a matter of why should anyone here waste any more of their time with you. You very obviously don't think that there's anything worthwhile for you to learn on this forum anyway. For the life of me, I really can't figure out why you even bother posting here.

Just ignore us, the same way that you chose to ignore people in your association that were trying to help you. Hey, that's the way you wanted it anyway, right?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Who came up with that tripe?!?! I prefer: "Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

How about "Opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one."

[HJ25]

While I can understand what all of you are telling truerookie, I think a lot of you are forgetting something... who has NEVER acted this way? Nobody wants to show their lack of knowledge! If you are new at something it is almost certain that you will not be that good at it, but you don't want people to rub it in.

Of course, "don't give me advice if you don't have an evaluation form in your hand" completely defeats the purpose of that anyway... but I know most of you will remember, at some point in your life and career, that you thought you knew way more than you did - if not for the only purpose of not looking like too much of an idiot.

That said... most of you can also testify that you've done a great deal of learning from more experienced officials; I'm just saying I don't think it's being very honest to pretend you never acted this way.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by HJ25
While I can understand what all of you are telling truerookie, I think a lot of you are forgetting something... who has NEVER acted this way? Nobody wants to show their lack of knowledge! If you are new at something it is almost certain that you will not be that good at it, but you don't want people to rub it in.

Of course, "don't give me advice if you don't have an evaluation form in your hand" completely defeats the purpose of that anyway... but I know most of you will remember, at some point in your life and career, that you thought you knew way more than you did - if not for the only purpose of not looking like too much of an idiot.

That said... most of you can also testify that you've done a great deal of learning from more experienced officials; I'm just saying I don't think it's being very honest to pretend you never acted this way.

Did I ever think that the old guys were nuts? Yes.

Did I have the attitude "Don't talk to me, put it on paper?" No.

There's a difference.

Welcome to the forum, HJ!

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by HJ25
While I can understand what all of you are telling truerookie, I think a lot of you are forgetting something... who has NEVER acted this way? Nobody wants to show their lack of knowledge! If you are new at something it is almost certain that you will not be that good at it, but you don't want people to rub it in.

Of course, "don't give me advice if you don't have an evaluation form in your hand" completely defeats the purpose of that anyway... but I know most of you will remember, at some point in your life and career, that you thought you knew way more than you did - if not for the only purpose of not looking like too much of an idiot.

That said... most of you can also testify that you've done a great deal of learning from more experienced officials; I'm just saying I don't think it's being very honest to pretend you never acted this way.

Who has never?

About 99% of us that have grown as officials and have been doing it for a long time.

There is a big difference between a bit of false bravado and building a brick wall that you will likely never overcome.

There has not been one response that said, every bit of advise is a golden nugget, but it's been unanimous that you should be open to hear it.

The first thing I say to a JV official that watched my first half and came in with us at halftime is,"Do you have anything for us?"

I've been in the dressing room at tournaments where we have 3 crews in there and that same question ALWAYS comes up from the crew working the game.