varsity criticism or just helping!

[chrs_schuster]

I'm not saying that I dont ask for info or that I dont listen closely to what the varsity officials are saying. BUT... theres always the 1 who imposes is will on you and lectures you about the nitpickety "new word" things. I usually go with the flow and take what I want from the conversation and throw the rest of the garbage out. Its just aggrevating sometimes to have someone, when possibly you didnt have your best half, come in and start on you thats all. I'm sure we have all been there!

[BktBallRef]

Have you considered that if all he can find is "nick-pickety" things, then overall, you're doing a good job and this is a chance to refine the minor details of your game. "Nick-pickety" things separate the great officials from the good ones.

[truerookie]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

OUCH!

Thanks!

[truerookie]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Being a second year official, I take the following approach. Do not give me advise unless you have an evaluation form in your hand. Why do I say this? A person cannot remember everything and most focus on the bad. You may come to me discussing your pet peeves. The form which will have comments written on it shows the person being evaluated the area where work in most needed. The comments will displaying genuine concern about the job being done.

I approach officiating like a job. I cannot improve my work unless, I have some paperwork where I can go reference to stay the course. [/B]

Wow!

All I can say is you're gonna be very happy person then because I don't think too many officials will be going out of their way to try to help you again after the first time you come at 'em with that one. I know I'd tell ya Sayonara.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by truerookie

Wow!

All I can say is you're gonna be very happy person then because I don't think too many officials will be going out of their way to try to help you again after the first time you come at 'em with that one. I know I'd tell ya Sayonara.

[/B]

I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you. [/B][/QUOTE]Well, I don't have an evaluation form with me.....so.....I won't make any further comments to you.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by truerookie
I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you.

A few weeks ago, I arrived at the game site to find that all both JV games were being played in front of the varsity contests. The girls JV game was in the 4th quarter. As I sat and watched, the game went to OT. The R came out started to put the ball in play per the AP arrow. I stepped out of the bleachers and whispered to the lead, "You always start an OT with a jump ball." He would have been pretty damn stupid to have siad, "I'm sorry but you don't have an evaluator's form, do you?"

Evaluators' use evaluation forms. In many areas, the officials who work the game after you probably won't. Even if forms are used in your area, to take the stand that you can't learn from someone unless they have a form is very closed minded.

You should forget ever going to a camp, as I can guarantee you that everything that you're told will not be on a form.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 25th, 2005 at 01:13 PM]

[truerookie]

To those who commented to my post. Correct me if I am wrong here. There were two portions to the post. 1.) He asked for feedback. 2.) He did not ask for feedback. I was referring to that portion of the original post in which the poster, stated there were times when he as reflecting on his own first half and SOME varsity officials would give their advise without him asking for it. This is why I said what I said in the post. DO NOT give me any unbeseeched advise is all I am saying.

Reading comprehension is IMPORTANT!!!!

[truerookie]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

A few weeks ago, I arrived at the game site to find that all both JV games were being played in front of the varsity contests. The girls JV game was in the 4th quarter. As I sat and watched, the game went to OT. The R came out started to put the ball in play per the AP arrow. I stepped out of the bleachers and whispered to the lead, "You always start an OT with a jump ball." He would have been pretty damn stupid to have siad, "I'm sorry but you don't have an evaluator's form, do you?"

Evaluators' use evaluation forms. In many areas, the officials who work the game after you probably won't. Even if forms are used in your area, to take the stand that you can't learn from someone unless they have a form is very closed minded.

You should forget ever going to a camp, as I can guarantee you that everything that you're told will not be on a form.

Who in the HAMSANDWICH!! are you to tell me what I should forget about doing?.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 25th, 2005 at 01:13 PM]

[truerookie]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

A few weeks ago, I arrived at the game site to find that all both JV games were being played in front of the varsity contests. The girls JV game was in the 4th quarter. As I sat and watched, the game went to OT. The R came out started to put the ball in play per the AP arrow. I stepped out of the bleachers and whispered to the lead, "You always start an OT with a jump ball." He would have been pretty damn stupid to have siad, "I'm sorry but you don't have an evaluator's form, do you?"

Evaluators' use evaluation forms. In many areas, the officials who work the game after you probably won't. Even if forms are used in your area, to take the stand that you can't learn from someone unless they have a form is very closed minded.

The aforemention, situation tells me two things in your area. 1). Mentorship is lacking in your area. 2). There was two young officials doing a game. If you would have had a least one varsity official with each young official doing a JV game. The situation you described would not have occurred.

You should forget ever going to a camp, as I can guarantee you that everything that you're told will not be on a form.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 25th, 2005 at 01:13 PM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by truerookie
To those who commented to my post. Correct me if I am wrong here. There were two portions to the post. 1.) He asked for feedback. 2.) He did not ask for feedback. I was referring to that portion of the original post in which the poster, stated there were times when he as reflecting on his own first half and SOME varsity officials would give their advise without him asking for it. This is why I said what I said in the post. DO NOT give me any unbeseeched advise is all I am saying.

Reading comprehension is IMPORTANT!!!!

With this attitude, don't expect much. For God's sake, you are a ROOKIE. Act like one. When someone with 20 years experience has something to say, act like a rookie and listen to him.

Evaluation form? I need one of those to give you 1 or 2 tips you can take and apply to your game? If that's the case, then just be a rookie with X years experience X years from now.

And if you don't ask, I am not going to be coming at you with anything anyway. But if you ask for a pointer or two, I'll be right there with something that can help you. Which IS better?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by truerookie
DO NOT give me any unbeseeched advise is all I am saying.

That's not actually all you said. Here again is what you said.

Do not give me advise unless you have an evaluation form in your hand.

I cannot improve my work unless, I have some paperwork where I can go reference to stay the course. [/b]

Those comments are pretty dumb, as others have pointed out. I'm not going to pile on, but I'm also not gonna let you get away with revising history.

[walter]

There are many times when I am asked by newer officials "What did you see?" or something to that effect. My reply is always the same, "Are you asking me because you want to know and we can talk about it or are you asking me because you are supposed to as a newer official?" I try my best to never question judgment but I will be honest in what I observed. I always have a notebook woth me so I can write down time and what happened at any point in the time I observed. If an official disputes what I saw (i.e I didn't do that, or that's not what happened", then I am done with the discussion. I learned this approach from camp and it has helped me personally and with critiquing other officials. If I'm not asked by someone and I've seen something which should be critiqued, I will offer my thoughts and I try to do it in the form of a question (i.e. I noticed you tend to come out on the floor as the lead in the frontcourt on rebounduing action, are you aware of that? Is there a reason for it?" Our JV officials are asked to stay through at least halftime of varsity contests and our varsity officials are asked to observe as much of the JV contests as possible. The purpose is to create dialogue situations and offer fresh constructive critiques. We are then asked to convert those thoughts to writing within 24-48 hours and submit those evals to our evaluation committee. It is successful for the most part but more is gained in those verbal discussions.

[Rich]

Originally posted by walter
There are many times when I am asked by newer officials "What did you see?" or something to that effect. My reply is always the same, "Are you asking me because you want to know and we can talk about it or are you asking me because you are supposed to as a newer official?" I try my best to never question judgment but I will be honest in what I observed. I always have a notebook woth me so I can write down time and what happened at any point in the time I observed. If an official disputes what I saw (i.e I didn't do that, or that's not what happened", then I am done with the discussion. I learned this approach from camp and it has helped me personally and with critiquing other officials. If I'm not asked by someone and I've seen something which should be critiqued, I will offer my thoughts and I try to do it in the form of a question (i.e. I noticed you tend to come out on the floor as the lead in the frontcourt on rebounduing action, are you aware of that? Is there a reason for it?" Our JV officials are asked to stay through at least halftime of varsity contests and our varsity officials are asked to observe as much of the JV contests as possible. The purpose is to create dialogue situations and offer fresh constructive critiques. We are then asked to convert those thoughts to writing within 24-48 hours and submit those evals to our evaluation committee. It is successful for the most part but more is gained in those verbal discussions.

The problems I see most with JV officials is that they haven't quite mastered advantage/disadvantage. They call a lot of unnecessary fouls and then come into the locker room and apologize for getting done late because they had so many fouls. Yet I would never say anything unless asked -- if they ask if they called a good game, then I would point to specific instances (especially if a bump from behind on a rebound was called when the defense cleanly clears the board) to try to get those officials thinking about how not every bit of contact is a foul and how that affects the flow of a game.

I care little about fine tuning in subvarsity games because most of the officials I see need some major work in at least one area. Yet, with no association and no formal evaluation process, this is not surprising.

--Rich

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by truerookie
DO NOT give me any unbeseeched advise is all I am saying.

Reading comprehension is IMPORTANT!!!!

Well, I understood you. My reading comprehension is fine.

I also fully intend to follow your wishes and never give you any unbeseeched advice on this forum again.

Just wondering though.....if you already know everything and don't need any unbeseeched advice, feedback, answers,etc., why do you even bother coming to this forum?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 25th, 2005 at 02:42 PM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by truerookie

Wow!

All I can say is you're gonna be very happy person then because I don't think too many officials will be going out of their way to try to help you again after the first time you come at 'em with that one. I know I'd tell ya Sayonara.

[/B]

I am not looking for any misunderstandings here. All, I am saying if you can find the time to make any comments make it worthwhile by have an evaluation form with you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Arrogance + ignorance = a very short officiating career.

You want feedback on an official form?

Bring an evaluation form, with all your personal info already filled out, a stamped, addressed envelope and hand it to the varsity official and say, "Would you please be kind enough to fill this out, I'd really appreciate it."

We are not there for you, we are there for our game, and if we feel like giving back to the vocation and mentoring you, grin and bare it.

You want more out of that exchange, the onus is ON YOU not the officials that have earned it already.