Closely guarded? IAABO#22 & #38

[womenshoops]

22. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official count is at 2, A-2 takes & holds a position between A-1 and B-1. Official stops the count. Correct?
38. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official's count is at 2, A-2 slides or passes between A-1 and A-2. Official stops the count. Correct?

Well, obviously, the only difference is "takes & holds a position" versus " slides or passes between". We have been back and forth, and cannot figure out what the rules say. There does not seem to be a casebook play like this. My inclination is to say the count should continue, because otherwise, the offensive team can always stop the count. But, if we assume that IAABO is not simply giving the same question twice, then the official in 22 is correct and 38 is not correct. But I still cannot cite a "Why". Help? Comments?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by womenshoops
22. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official count is at 2, A-2 takes & holds a position between A-1 and B-1. Official stops the count. Correct?
38. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official's count is at 2, A-2 slides or passes between A-1 and A-2. Official stops the count. Correct?

Well, obviously, the only difference is "takes & holds a position" versus " slides or passes between". We have been back and forth, and cannot figure out what the rules say. There does not seem to be a casebook play like this. My inclination is to say the count should continue, because otherwise, the offensive team can always stop the count. But, if we assume that IAABO is not simply giving the same question twice, then the official in 22 is correct and 38 is not correct. But I still cannot cite a "Why". Help? Comments?

There is another difference, but perhaps it's a typo. Your second play says that and A player slides between two other A players, rather than between an A and a B player. Is that the correct description?

[womenshoops]

SORRY:
In the second situation, A-2 slides between A-1 and B-1, the defender. It was a typo.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by womenshoops
22. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official count is at 2, A-2 takes & holds a position between A-1 and B-1. Official stops the count. Correct?
38. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official's count is at 2, A-2 slides or passes between A-1 and A-2. Official stops the count. Correct?

Well, obviously, the only difference is "takes & holds a position" versus " slides or passes between". We have been back and forth, and cannot figure out what the rules say. There does not seem to be a casebook play like this. My inclination is to say the count should continue, because otherwise, the offensive team can always stop the count. But, if we assume that IAABO is not simply giving the same question twice, then the official in 22 is correct and 38 is not correct. But I still cannot cite a "Why". Help? Comments?

We went round-and-round on this a couple of weeks ago, with no definite conclusion.

In NCAA, the official is correct in the first play -- see 4-11.4. There's no similar statement (nor "opposing" statement) in FED.

[cmckenna]

Originally posted by womenshoops
38. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official's count is at 2, A-2 slides or passes between A-1 and A-2. Official stops the count. Correct?

Was this from the new officials exam or the refresher? The IAABO refresher I have has the added statement "without stopping" for the sitch listed above. I answered NO because the A2 only cut between them and did not stop.

The other thing I notice in your #38.... I think you meant to say that A2 slides or passes between A1 and B1 not A1 and A2.

[ref18]

Originally posted by womenshoops
22. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official count is at 2, A-2 takes & holds a position between A-1 and B-1. Official stops the count. Correct?
38. A-1 is holding the ball in the frontcourt & closely guarded by B-1. As the official's count is at 2, A-2 slides or passes between A-1 and A-2. Official stops the count. Correct?

22. Yes, 4-10, 4-23-1

38. Yes, 4-10, 4-23-1, 9-10-1a

[MikeMel]

ref18:

You say YES to both questions? I don't understand. Why should I stop the count just because an offensive player slides in between the ballhandler and the defense. The ballhandler is still being closely-guarded. There's no reference to other offensive players in your rule cite.

The ruling in the casebook for 9.10.1 says:
"This is considered to be a closely-guarded and a violation in five seconds...if any B player is within 6 feet of the ball."

Mike

[ref18]

Originally posted by MikeMel
ref18:

You say YES to both questions? I don't understand. Why should I stop the count just because an offensive player slides in between the ballhandler and the defense. The ballhandler is still being closely-guarded. There's no reference to other offensive players in your rule cite.

The ruling in the casebook for 9.10.1 says:
"This is considered to be a closely-guarded and a violation in five seconds...if any B player is within 6 feet of the ball."

Mike

I don't say yes, the answer sheet says yes.

I just put down what it tells me.

[BayStateRef]

Originally posted by MikeMel
ref18:

You say YES to both questions? I don't understand. Why should I stop the count just because an offensive player slides in between the ballhandler and the defense. The ballhandler is still being closely-guarded. There's no reference to other offensive players in your rule cite.

The ruling in the casebook for 9.10.1 says:
"This is considered to be a closely-guarded and a violation in five seconds...if any B player is within 6 feet of the ball."

Mike

You cannot "guard" a player if there is an offensive teammate between you and the ball -- even if for a moment. Once an offensive player comes between the defender and the ball handler, there is no guarding position on the ball-handler. Instead, there is a guarding position on the player that moved between the two.

It does not matter how long A2 was between A1 and B1. You get to start the closely guarded count all over, once the screen is gone.

[ThickSkin]

My answer key tells me that 22 is no and cites 4.12.1 and 9.9.1. For 38 It says Yes and cites 3.3.1e

[MikeMel]

My answer key tells me that 22 is no and cites 4.12.1 and 9.9.1. For 38 It says Yes and cites 3.3.1e

Those cites make no sense to the question referred to in the original post. We're talking about the IAABO Refresher test here. There seem to be two different tests. Most of the questions on this board are about the FED test not the IAABO test.

Mike

[BayStateRef]

Originally posted by ThickSkin
My answer key tells me that 22 is no and cites 4.12.1 and 9.9.1. For 38 It says Yes and cites 3.3.1e

Not sure what "key" you are using, but those cites do not match up with the questions. Ref18 posted the correct answers from the correct key.

[ThickSkin]

From the actual IAABO test. 2005-06. I didn't see in the original post if these questions were from the refresher exam. my apologies.

[Edited by ThickSkin on Nov 17th, 2005 at 04:43 PM]

[ref18]

Originally posted by ThickSkin
From the actual IAABO test. 2005-06. I didn't see in the original post if these questions were from the refresher exam. my apologies.

[Edited by ThickSkin on Nov 17th, 2005 at 04:43 PM]

Dude, check your e-mail.

[som44]

My IAABo test #38 says the official continues the count when player A2 slides or passes between A1 and B1 but does not stop--that is why #38 is yes--check your question again