Shoulder Push

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

God isn't paying attention today, he's too busy figuring out how to move that rock out of his apartment.
[/B][/QUOTE]I get it, I get it......

I remember that from Sunday School. It's the Easter story, right?

Jesus was crucified......and they placed his body into a cave with a giant, immense rock in front of it...... and 2 days later, the giant, immense rock was pushed aside.....and Jesus came out.....and if he then sees his shadow, we get 6 more weeks of winter.

Right?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

God isn't paying attention today, he's too busy figuring out how to move that rock out of his apartment.
[/B]

I get it, I get it......

I remember that from Sunday School. It's the Easter story, right?

Jesus was crucified......and they placed his body into a cave with a giant, immense rock in front of it...... and 2 days later, the giant, immense rock was pushed aside.....and Jesus came out.....and if he then sees his shadow, we get 6 more weeks of winter.

Right? [/B][/QUOTE]

Obviously, that rock wasn't so big that GOd couldn't move it!

[JCrow]

60 Minutes had Jordan on with Ed Bradley last Sunday nite. Jordan was demonstrating how to handcheck an offensive player and steer him in a desired direction.

All I ref is Youth Games down at the local YMCA.

I thought,

"Jeeez...every Coach is going to be watching this and teaching their kids to handcheck like Jordan this year."

It is amazing how much of an effect TV/the NBA has on the general understanding of the Rules. The craziest years I ever reffed were when Rodman played with the Bad Boys in Detroit. The kids would take two hands and push a rebounder out of position and look at me in disbelief when I blew the whistle. The NBA let Rodman get away with outright murder.

I for one....call cheezy handcheck fouls in the first quarter to set the tone of the game. I find if you don't, the kids escalate it until you have wrestling later.

[SeanFitzRef]

Originally posted by JCrow
I for one....call cheezy handcheck fouls in the first quarter to set the tone of the game. I find if you don't, the kids escalate it until you have wrestling later.

Question then to all involved in this discussion.....

A1 is driving to the basket in the first quarter, starting at the top of the key. B1 is guarding. A1 crosses over. gets head and shoulders by B1, and continues to drive straight to the rim. B1 puts a had on the hip of A1, slightly displacing A1, but A1 continues forward and scores. Do you:

a) stop the drive to call the hand check?
b) call the hand check, count the basket and send A1 to the line for one throw?
c) No call and keep playing?

What is your answer if said play happens in the fourth quarter?

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef

Question then to all involved in this discussion.....

A1 is driving to the basket in the first quarter, starting at the top of the key. B1 is guarding. A1 crosses over. gets head and shoulders by B1, and continues to drive straight to the rim. B1 puts a had on the hip of A1, slightly displacing A1, but A1 continues forward and scores. Do you:

a) stop the drive to call the hand check?
b) call the hand check, count the basket and send A1 to the line for one throw?
c) No call and keep playing?

What is your answer if said play happens in the fourth quarter?

I would say that if you call it by the book, then A...However I would say C) because some players are strong enough to discard the handcheck and finish without it affecting them. However, other players may be delayed by the hand check and force your hand into calling the foul immediately.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef

Question then to all involved in this discussion.....

A1 is driving to the basket in the first quarter, starting at the top of the key. B1 is guarding. A1 crosses over. gets head and shoulders by B1, and continues to drive straight to the rim. B1 puts a had on the hip of A1, slightly displacing A1, but A1 continues forward and scores. Do you:

a) stop the drive to call the hand check?
b) call the hand check, count the basket and send A1 to the line for one throw?
c) No call and keep playing?

What is your answer if said play happens in the fourth quarter?

Situations described like this are only meant to create controversy. It's impossible to say without question how you'd call this play without actually seeing it happen. And 5 different people that saw it from 5 different angles all might see it differently. Chances are, if the dribbler got past the defender and had a clear lane to the basket, I'd pass on the contact because there was no disavantage to the dribbler. It just depends on so many factors.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef

Question then to all involved in this discussion.....

A1 is driving to the basket in the first quarter, starting at the top of the key. B1 is guarding. A1 crosses over. gets head and shoulders by B1, and continues to drive straight to the rim. B1 puts a had on the hip of A1, slightly displacing A1, but A1 continues forward and scores. Do you:

a) stop the drive to call the hand check?
b) call the hand check, count the basket and send A1 to the line for one throw?
c) No call and keep playing?

What is your answer if said play happens in the fourth quarter?

This has nothing to do with what JCrow is talking about and is not worth discussing.

btw nate, I thought you weren't coming back.

[walter]

I agree with Smitty. The question posed by SeanFitzRef is impossible to answer in a real life context without seeing the play and the level of players involved. As for this thread, Nate, I think we'd all agree that reasonable people presented with the same set of facts could come to different yet reasonable conclusions. That is judgment. Two officials may see the same play and one may call a foul while the other may pass. I don't think anyone here would dispute that. The problem I think people are having, and the way I read your posts, is that you appear to be presenting your scenarios from a "player's" perspective. The world of playing and the world of officiating are two very different things. For instance, almost every post player believes they can back a defender down in order to get to the basket. However, what the official is looking for is the illegal displacement of that defensive player. If that happens we are going the other way. A classic example is the post player using his upper back and shoulders into a defender to create space. That is a foul but when it's called, the post player almost always has this look of shock on his face. Similarly, defensive post players using forearms and hands and knees to keep an offensive post player at bay. Again, from an official's standpoint, that is a foul. Can two players jockey for position? Certainly as long as neither one puts the other at a disadvantage from an official's perspective. If someone gets the advantageous position legally (i.e. not using the swim stroke, etc), play on. Unlike other sports, strength doesn't entitle one to do as he pleases on the basketball court. As a former player, it took me a long time to get used to calling the game from an official's perspective rather than a player's perspective. While being a player may give you a feel for the game, which is great, you can't call the game as if you were playing in it. Once you understand that, I think you'll find the game a lot easier to call and you'll see where others here are coming from. Never stop learning.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef

Question then to all involved in this discussion.....

A1 is driving to the basket in the first quarter, starting at the top of the key. B1 is guarding. A1 crosses over. gets head and shoulders by B1, and continues to drive straight to the rim. B1 puts a had on the hip of A1, slightly displacing A1, but A1 continues forward and scores. Do you:

a) stop the drive to call the hand check?
b) call the hand check, count the basket and send A1 to the line for one throw?
c) No call and keep playing?

What is your answer if said play happens in the fourth quarter?

You left out a crucial element, and A and B cannot be an either or option unless the illegal contact continued from dribble through shot.

If A1 is still dribbling it can not be a shooting foul, if A1 has gathered the whistle does not stop the shot attempt because of continuous motion.

By rule 4-27-3, you may have a) or c), or b) or c), but not a) b) or c).

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

This has nothing to do with what JCrow is talking about and is not worth discussing.

btw nate, I thought you weren't coming back.

Decided that I would over look those who had an agenda in replying, hence YOU.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by walter
I agree with Smitty. The question posed by SeanFitzRef is impossible to answer in a real life context without seeing the play and the level of players involved. As for this thread, Nate, I think we'd all agree that reasonable people presented with the same set of facts could come to different yet reasonable conclusions. That is judgment. Two officials may see the same play and one may call a foul while the other may pass. I don't think anyone here would dispute that. The problem I think people are having, and the way I read your posts, is that you appear to be presenting your scenarios from a "player's" perspective. The world of playing and the world of officiating are two very different things. For instance, almost every post player believes they can back a defender down in order to get to the basket. However, what the official is looking for is the illegal displacement of that defensive player. If that happens we are going the other way. A classic example is the post player using his upper back and shoulders into a defender to create space. That is a foul but when it's called, the post player almost always has this look of shock on his face. Similarly, defensive post players using forearms and hands and knees to keep an offensive post player at bay. Again, from an official's standpoint, that is a foul. Can two players jockey for position? Certainly as long as neither one puts the other at a disadvantage from an official's perspective. If someone gets the advantageous position legally (i.e. not using the swim stroke, etc), play on. Unlike other sports, strength doesn't entitle one to do as he pleases on the basketball court. As a former player, it took me a long time to get used to calling the game from an official's perspective rather than a player's perspective. While being a player may give you a feel for the game, which is great, you can't call the game as if you were playing in it. Once you understand that, I think you'll find the game a lot easier to call and you'll see where others here are coming from. Never stop learning.

I agree with what you are saying and appreciate the advice. I feel like I do officaite the game the way I would want it called if I were playing, maybe I should reconsider.

All I was trying to say in this nice 5 page long post is that the situation that was described in the very beigining is subjective....meaning just what you said about the hypothetical situation above,and that is that without seeing the play, and actually who initiated the contact, you can't just say PC foul. Just like the situation described above. If you officiate strictly by the book. Then you would have to wistle the play dead and call the hand check. In his example he say that the defender slightly displaces the offensive player. Hence, FOUL. That was the same example I used. What is the severity of the bump or brush. Some of you say severity cannot be factored in, but some of the same people say that they would factor it in on the Hypo. situation with the hand check.

Several people seem to have a problem with me using the word Subjective. I can use the word judgment if you want. However, they are synonyms. Here is the definition of SUBJECTIVE: judgment based on individual personal impressions and feelings. That came from dictionary.com.

I think that this discussion is very relavant. As long as we stick to trying to give examples for our arguments and not lambasting people for their opinions then these types of discussions can be beneficial. Thank for your advice.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
That was the same example I used. What is the severity of the bump or brush. Some of you say severity cannot be factored in, but some of the same people say that they would factor it in on the Hypo. situation with the hand check.

You still just don't get it. Severity has absolutely nothing to do with why I'd call something a foul or not. It's all based on advantage/disadvantage. You're choosing to twist people's words to make an argument that is just plain wrong.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Smitty

You still just don't get it. Severity has absolutely nothing to do with why I'd call something a foul or not. It's all based on advantage/disadvantage. You're choosing to twist people's words to make an argument that is just plain wrong.

I am a new official so maybe my choice of words isnt correct. I use the word severity. I should use advantage/disadvantage. But does not the severity of a bump or push or hand check determine whether a player gained an advantage or disadvantage??? So wouldnt it be determining the same thing???

[Edited by Nate1224hoops on Oct 28th, 2005 at 10:15 AM]

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

I am a new official so maybe my choice of words isnt correct. I use the word severity. I should use advantage/disadvantage. But does not the severity of a bump or push or hand check determine whether a player gained an advantage or disadvantage???

Not necessarily. That little brush of the hand on the hip could have done nothing to change A1's direction or momentum in his drive toward the hoop. But perhaps A1 had both feet off the floor at that moment and that little brush of the hand on the hip was enough to get him slightly off balance and he loses his footing when he comes back to the floor. Same "severity" of contact, different result based on advantage/disadvantage. Same can be said for a hard slap on the arm of a player dribbling toward the basket where B1 is the only player between A1 and the basket. The slap doesn't cause A1 to lose any momentum and he's now past B1 and dribbles in for an easy lay-up, which you probably called "no basket" because you penalized the slap that caused no disadvantage to A1. In fact, you now cause A a disadvantage because you wiped off 2 points for them. Way to go, ref.

See what I mean?

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Smitty

Not necessarily. That little brush of the hand on the hip could have done nothing to change A1's direction or momentum in his drive toward the hoop. But perhaps A1 had both feet off the floor at that moment and that little brush of the hand on the hip was enough to get him slightly off balance and he loses his footing when he comes back to the floor. Same "severity" of contact, different result based on advantage/disadvantage. Same can be said for a hard slap on the arm of a player dribbling toward the basket where B1 is the only player between A1 and the basket. The slap doesn't cause A1 to lose any momentum and he's now past B1 and dribbles in for an easy lay-up, which you probably called "no basket" because you penalized the slap that caused no disadvantage to A1. In fact, you now cause A a disadvantage because you wiped off 2 points for them. Way to go, ref.

See what I mean?

I do see what you mean. And it makes perfect sense. But what your saying is that the call will be subjective, subjective to whats going on when the action in question occurs right?(ie.. the hand check on drive that doesnt affect dribbler or the check when coming to the floor does cause player to loose balance.)

Thanks for your help. I see what your are saying. You use examples that are very clearifing rather than tell me that I am wrong and dont need to officiate.

I think that you are saying exactly what I said earlier and that is that the bump or brush that occurs is not always going to draw a whistle. It will depend on what the circumstance were when the action took place, as you described above. This is where it is subjective to each individual official. Judgement as some say, or subjectivity are a part of the game. If it were not then there would never be controversy in sports concerning officaiting. Look at this years Playoffs...ton of controversy.