Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
If by displacing you mean pivoting into a defensive player creating enough contact to cause a defensive player to rock back on his/her heels then, to me that is not a foul.
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By rule, that is a foul. Whether you choose to call it is a whole 'nother matter.
That's my point.
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Yes it is. It is also a rule that a defender may not put his/her hands on the offensive player while he/she has the ball--hence a hand check. How often is that called? Maybe 40-50% of the time.
I am not trying to dispute what you are saying. I agree by the book, it is a foul. In the other post, we discussed bumps and brushes. Very different in boys and girls game. Boys are able to make slight bumps into a defender and use that to an advantage, most girls are not. My point, and I may not have one..lol, is that the depending of the severity of the bump or brush will depend on whether a foul is called.
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Don't you use the principle of the contact being a foul if the player actually gained an advantage?
What other criteria could you use?
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Not sure I understand your question. What I shoulda said is that officiating isnt as cut and dry as the rule book. Officiating is completly SUBJECTIVE. The hand check is an example as well as the slight bump. Both of these types of situations can drive a referee crazy. Severity dictates calls. Just because A1 is hand checking B1 80 feet from the basket doesnt mean that a whisle will sound. Think about how many games that you have sat in the stands and watched it happen over and over with it not being called.
Again you are right. I am not disputing the fact that the rule book states that it is a foul. I think that an officals judgement will determine whether a call should or shouldnt be made.
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My point is that you stated that someone is gaining an advantage by contact. If gaining an advantage by contact isn't a foul, then what is? How do you determine what a foul is or isn't if you're not using advantage/disadvantage as a criteria? If you are going strictly by the severity of the contact, I disagree completely with your philosophy.
Btw, maybe you can explain your "hand-checking" philosophy to me also. It seems to be somewhat different than the the FED instructions to officials in POE 2A issued in the 2003/04 rule book. In those instructions, the exact quote was "Regardless of where it takes place on the floor, when a player continuously places a hand on the opposing player, it's a foul". It also says "when a player places both hands on a player, it's a foul". Severity of contact is not supposed to be a criteria in either of those cases, according to the rulesmakers. Maybe I've been interpreting those POE's wrong, but I always thought that the NFHS was also telling us to use advantage/disadvantage on the other handchecking examples mentioned also, as per the rest of that POE. Thoughts?
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This has become an issue of someone being right and someone being wrong now. I didnt mean to try to prove anyone wrong or insult anyones intelligance when I posted. Just stated my opinon. This is what I will stop with. You are exactly right, as I said before. However, just like in football, where the rules states that a defender may not make contact beyond the initial 5yrd. Does it happen? Yes. Does it ever get flagged. Yes. Does it draw a flag 80% of the time....uhhh maybe. Hand check is the same way. You used the word continuous, in your explanation. Does that mean that if I use it only when I need to that its okay? A hand check is a hand check is a hand check. It's a foul every time it happens, according to the book. Do you call it everytime you see it? I hope you do and if you do then your a great official of the book.
Severity to me determines everything. IMO, in any brush or bump someone gains an advantage. That's the idea of the game. A post player wants to maintain contact with a defender in order to "feel him," to determine where he is going. This contact results in the offensive player gaining an advantage..yet he hasnt used his hand to hold. But he did use contact or bumping to gain that position. Is this a foul? By the book...yes. Called in most games. No.