Shoulder Push

[Tweet]

Alright i just wanted to get some opinions on people's judgment on callin a player control foul on a situation like this one:

A1 in the key with B1 right infront of her, A1 gets a pass bends down and takes a step towards B1, displacing A1 slightly, A1 then stands upright and realizes B1 will block her shot so she passes it outside again. Couple of passes later A1 is in the key again gets the pass again, and you got... she does the same thing again, however this time she displaced B1 enough to make the basket... TWEEEEEETTT , NO BASKET, PLAYER CONTROL, A1 and the coach went crazy , they keep askin me how i can call a player control when all she was doin was gettin her position ( or somethin stupid like that).

I didn't call it the first time cause nobody was disadvantaged but it definately influenced my decision to call it the second time because a) she attempted it before and b) she scored a asket because of it.

I guess my question is when would u guys call a player control in situations liek this, as in the pushes to get a better shot, would you call a PC if thsi gurl had scored on the first try??

thanx for the input

[ThickSkin]

Originally posted by Tweet
Alright i just wanted to get some opinions on people's judgment on callin a player control foul on a situation like this one:

A1 in the key with B1 right infront of her, A1 gets a pass bends down and takes a step towards B1, displacing A1 slightly, A1 then stands upright and realizes B1 will block her shot so she passes it outside again. Couple of passes later A1 is in the key again gets the pass again, and you got... she does the same thing again, however this time she displaced B1 enough to make the basket... TWEEEEEETTT , NO BASKET, PLAYER CONTROL, A1 and the coach went crazy , they keep askin me how i can call a player control when all she was doin was gettin her position ( or somethin stupid like that).

I didn't call it the first time cause nobody was disadvantaged but it definately influenced my decision to call it the second time because a) she attempted it before and b) she scored a asket because of it.

I guess my question is when would u guys call a player control in situations liek this, as in the pushes to get a better shot, would you call a PC if thsi gurl had scored on the first try??

thanx for the input

Advantage/Disadvantage! Did A1 gain an advantage by putting her shoulder in B1 to create space?

[Nate1224hoops]

I'm not sure that constitutes a player control foul. A1 is allowed to pivot freely. It's a move that is very common in the boys game. Rarely have I seen an offensive foul called. However, if the arm get extended and a push occurs, its offensive everytime.

[ThickSkin]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
I'm not sure that constitutes a player control foul. A1 is allowed to pivot freely. It's a move that is very common in the boys game. Rarely have I seen an offensive foul called. However, if the arm get extended and a push occurs, its offensive everytime.

Really? So I can pivot into the defensive player who is standing in front of me with legal guarding position, displace them with my shoulder and it isn't a foul?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
I'm not sure that constitutes a player control foul. A1 is allowed to pivot freely. It's a move that is very common in the boys game. Rarely have I seen an offensive foul called. However, if the arm get extended and a push occurs, its offensive everytime.

A1 is not allowed to displace a defender who has a legal position while pivoting.

[Nate1224hoops]

I think it all in how you determine "displacing." If by displacing you mean, dropping a shoulder in just to knock a player back to gain the advantage of space so that you can get your shot off, then it is definetly a foul. If by displacing you mean pivoting into a defensive player creating enough contact to cause a defensive player to rock back on his/her heels then, to me that is not a foul. It happens a lot. I dont think it is any different than a post player backing or bumping down a defender. There are limits of course.

[Grail]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
I think it all in how you determine "displacing." If by displacing you mean, dropping a shoulder in just to knock a player back to gain the advantage of space so that you can get your shot off, then it is definetly a foul. If by displacing you mean pivoting into a defensive player creating enough contact to cause a defensive player to rock back on his/her heels then, to me that is not a foul. It happens a lot. I dont think it is any different than a post player backing or bumping down a defender. There are limits of course.

The limit being, you can't do it. If I back down a player with LGP, I've gained an advantage. That's a foul.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
I think it all in how you determine "displacing." If by displacing you mean, dropping a shoulder in just to knock a player back to gain the advantage of space so that you can get your shot off, then it is definetly a foul. If by displacing you mean pivoting into a defensive player creating enough contact to cause a defensive player to rock back on his/her heels then, to me that is not a foul. It happens a lot. I dont think it is any different than a post player backing or bumping down a defender. There are limits of course.

If the defender had LGP, the contact is illegal. And if it is enough to allow a shot that had no chance before the contact, it's a foul. Doesn't matter whether the defender is moved 2 feet or 2 inches.

In the original situation, it sounds like Tweet got it just about right. First time, no real advantage gained, contact slight. Second time, more contact, clear advantage, foul. If the coach can't see the different he needs to ask his assistant to explain it to him.

[Nate1224hoops]

I agree. The rule book states that if contact is made by the offense and the defense is in proper position and the offense gains an advantage, then it's an offensive foul. However, basketball is a contact sport. If you called a fould everytime one player put his/her hands on or bumped another player, then there would be no game. If would be a free throw game.

I understand exactly what you are saying. And agree with it. However, I feel that a ref. must use his/her own judgement as to how much contact is too much.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
If you called a fould everytime one player put his/her hands on or bumped another player, then there would be no game.

No one is talking about calling every bump and brush. I think the tendency is to let too much go, rather than not enough. And I think it varies a lot by level, and style of play. The girls' game is so horizontal that there is much more contact, but that also means that at the highest level, they're much more used to playing through it. So it ends up looking like a scrum sometimes. But at the middle levels of play, I usually end up calling more than "average" because the players haven't learned to play through. Girls' JV is about the toughest. because the girls haven't learned to defend cleanly, and they haven't learned how to deal with the defense, so there are lots of fouls, and lots of shots. Many of the "bumps" and "brushes" appear slight, but they do confer an illegal advantage, and have to be called. Rarely is there a good girls JV game that doesn't end up with 45 or 50 fouls. Refs need to call those, or the girls won't learn and move up. Hmmm.... time to write another article, I guess.

[Nate1224hoops]

I agree completely. You are exactly right. I guess I tend not to call the game close enough. I tend to let minor things that are foul pass. Boys, however is much tough to officiate. Small brushes or bumps in girls basketball usually dont provide them with enough space to get a shot off if they couldnt do so to begin with. Boys have the ability to take that small bump that would never be blown as a foul and use it to their advantage, especillaly the good ones. That was more of what I was talking about.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
If by displacing you mean pivoting into a defensive player creating enough contact to cause a defensive player to rock back on his/her heels then, to me that is not a foul.

By rule, that is a foul. Whether you choose to call it is a whole 'nother matter.

That's my point.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

By rule, that is a foul. Whether you choose to call it is a whole 'nother matter.

That's my point.

Yes it is. It is also a rule that a defender may not put his/her hands on the offensive player while he/she has the ball--hence a hand check. How often is that called? Maybe 40-50% of the time.

I am not trying to dispute what you are saying. I agree by the book, it is a foul. In the other post, we discussed bumps and brushes. Very different in boys and girls game. Boys are able to make slight bumps into a defender and use that to an advantage, most girls are not. My point, and I may not have one..lol, is that the depending of the severity of the bump or brush will depend on whether a foul is called.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

Yes it is. It is also a rule that a defender may not put his/her hands on the offensive player while he/she has the ball--hence a hand check. How often is that called? Maybe 40-50% of the time.

I am not trying to dispute what you are saying. I agree by the book, it is a foul. In the other post, we discussed bumps and brushes. Very different in boys and girls game. Boys are able to make slight bumps into a defender and use that to an advantage, most girls are not. My point, and I may not have one..lol, is that the depending of the severity of the bump or brush will depend on whether a foul is called.

Don't you use the principle of the contact being a foul if the player actually gained an advantage?

What other criteria could you use?

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Don't you use the principle of the contact being a foul if the player actually gained an advantage?

What other criteria could you use?

Not sure I understand your question. What I shoulda said is that officiating isnt as cut and dry as the rule book. Officiating is completly SUBJECTIVE. The hand check is an example as well as the slight bump. Both of these types of situations can drive a referee crazy. Severity dictates calls. Just because A1 is hand checking B1 80 feet from the basket doesnt mean that a whisle will sound. Think about how many games that you have sat in the stands and watched it happen over and over with it not being called.

Again you are right. I am not disputing the fact that the rule book states that it is a foul. I think that an officals judgement will determine whether a call should or shouldnt be made.