Shoulder Push

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Hey Nate, here's where you are wrong - just because an official disagrees with you does not make them a rules book official.

Here's where else you are wrong - if the players do not or can not adjust to how the game is being called then there is nothing at all wrong with shooting free throws all game. If you aint ready to make the calls that need to be made then maybe you aint ready to referee the game.

First off I didnt say that just because anyone disagrees they are a rulebook referee. Secondly, you say players must adjust to the calls, this means there has to be SUBJECTIVITY. This means that there is not consistancy to calling a game. My statement was that some refs. are rulebook refs and this is why some players struggle. You have Rulebookers and others. Those who call it straight by the book and those who take into conderation outside factors.

Also, I dont,and I am not sure about the site, appreciate you telling me what I am ready for. If you would read the entire post, I said from the outset that it is a foul. However, I choose to see a little more in the situation than the words on the page. Taking shots at posters is very low. Just dont reply to what I have to say if you cant give advice. I'd rather not hear your attitude. Thanks

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by deecee
most everyone wants to be -- and maybe has to be -- right so they say things that they are 100% right on and is supported in the rules book -- everything else, even if thats how they ref, they wont mention because subjectivity is not part of the rulebook but unfortunatly its part of the game.

And, never having met any of us, you know that is true....how?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by deecee
most everyone wants to be -- and maybe has to be -- right so they say things that they are 100% right on and is supported in the rules book -- everything else, even if thats how they ref, they wont mention because subjectivity is not part of the rulebook but unfortunatly its part of the game.

Subjectivity is not part of reffing. Judgment is.

So you assign which varsity league? You are the interpreter for which college division?

This has nothing to do with "having to be right." It has to do with refs working to be consistent across the country on how they call things. You say that it's subjective. It's not. It's trying to get together with other refs and find some middle ground about how to call contact. Most refs are in this middled ground that Dan and Jurassic are describing. You aren't there. That's fine. But don't expect to move the parade onto the sidewalk because that's where you'd rather march. If you want to ref the way others do, listen to what they say and try to follow that. If you just want it your way, then go ahead. But don't expect everyone to fall into line behind you!

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

And, never having met any of us, you know that is true....how?

The point I was trying to make about SUBJECTIVITY is that what you consider a foul, I may not. And vice-versa. I may view that bump and just hard basketball. You may see it as the offense trying to get an advantage. Everything that happens on the floor is subjective to the individual official.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
Also, I dont,and I am not sure about the site, appreciate you telling me what I am ready for. If you would read the entire post, I said from the outset that it is a foul. However, I choose to see a little more in the situation than the words on the page. Taking shots at posters is very low. Just dont reply to what I have to say if you cant give advice. I'd rather not hear your attitude. Thanks

No one has taken a shot at you. We gave you advice, and you disagreed with that. We pointed out why we gave the advice you did. You started talking about "rulebookers". We again disagreed with your interp of a sitch, and you think we're shooting at you?

This doesn't have to be a flame war, but you need to find a way to disagree without it getting into an insult fest. We can disagree about judgement without calling each other "rulebookers" and so on.

Some of us disagree with you. It happens. Why is that a problem?

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Subjectivity is not part of reffing. Judgment is.

So you assign which varsity league? You are the interpreter for which college division?

This has nothing to do with "having to be right." It has to do with refs working to be consistent across the country on how they call things. You say that it's subjective. It's not. It's trying to get together with other refs and find some middle ground about how to call contact. Most refs are in this middled ground that Dan and Jurassic are describing. You aren't there. That's fine. But don't expect to move the parade onto the sidewalk because that's where you'd rather march. If you want to ref the way others do, listen to what they say and try to follow that. If you just want it your way, then go ahead. But don't expect everyone to fall into line behind you!

Not at all what I am trying to do. Just trying to come to a pulic formum and state my opinion. I am looking for no one to jump on my side.

On to subjectiviy...you say there is none. Well when was the last time you watched a game and disagreed with a call that was made? If you did disagree, well thats subjectivity. What you call a walk, I may have seen as a pivot foot not moving. What you may have called over the back, because of your position, I may have seen no contact form mine. Most calls are subject to who seen what, what angle they had.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

The point I was trying to make about SUBJECTIVITY is that what you consider a foul, I may not. And vice-versa. I may view that bump and just hard basketball. You may see it as the offense trying to get an advantage. Everything that happens on the floor is subjective to the individual official.

Being supported by the rule book is a good thing, Nate, not a bad thing. When a ref calls a foul, if that call isn't supported by the rule book, that ref won't be on the floor many more times. The rule book is there to define what's legal and what's not, and the ref is there to see that those boundaries are enforced.

Again, subjectivity isn't part of the equation. Judgement is. Refs use judgment to determine when the rules are broken. Their judgment needs to be informed by the rules as written, and by the interpretations that their peers put onto the rules. There are more categories of refs than rulebookers and others. There are "otheres" that "let 'em play" and others that "keep it tight". THere are those that do more talking at the beginning of the game, and those that talk less.

There are lots of styles and lots of personalituesm ut each must submit to the trends in their locale and in their association or there would be chaos. When we talk about how we interpret the rules of contact, we aren't just trying to puff ourselves up for our own aggrandizement. YOu asked about a situation, and we answered our of our experience, interpretations and observations of countless games and many, many refs. You are free to reject all that. But don't throw it in our faces. YOu asked after all!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

First off I didnt say that just because anyone disagrees they are a rulebook referee. Secondly, you say players must adjust to the calls, this means there has to be SUBJECTIVITY. This means that there is not consistancy to calling a game. My statement was that some refs. are rulebook refs and this is why some players struggle. You have Rulebookers and others. Those who call it straight by the book and those who take into conderation outside factors.

Also, I dont,and I am not sure about the site, appreciate you telling me what I am ready for. If you would read the entire post, I said from the outset that it is a foul. However, I choose to see a little more in the situation than the words on the page. Taking shots at posters is very low. Just dont reply to what I have to say if you cant give advice. I'd rather not hear your attitude. Thanks

I'm not giving you advice Nate, I'm giving you my opinion. And I really don't care too much if you appreciate it or not, to tell you the truth.

If your concern is whether players struggle or not with the way a particular game is being called then you are not ready to referee. If the game needs a lot of fouls called then you better be able to make them. And to hell with the players - either they adjust or they continue to hear lots of whistles.

As I said, not advice to you at all. Just my opinion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Sigh....

I don't know why, but I just wanna clarify a few things.

Nate, you stated your philosophy. In your own words-- "Boys are able to make slight bumps into defenders and use that to an advantage". You also stated "Severity dictates calls" and "My point is depending on the severity of the bump or brush will depend on whether a foul is called.

I disagree completely with your philosophy.

My philosophy is is that severity of contact has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether a foul should or should not be called. Whether one player gains an illegal advantage by that contact is the criteria that should be used.

Iow, look for advantage/disadvantage on fouls, NOT how hard the contact was or wasn't.

If a shooter can make enough room for themself to get a shot off by using a slight nudge, then the shooter gained an illegal advantage with that very slight contact, and a PC foul shoulda been called on him/her.

As I said, you do what you wanna do though.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by rainmaker

No one has taken a shot at you. We gave you advice, and you disagreed with that. We pointed out why we gave the advice you did. You started talking about "rulebookers". We again disagreed with your interp of a sitch, and you think we're shooting at you?

This doesn't have to be a flame war, but you need to find a way to disagree without it getting into an insult fest. We can disagree about judgement without calling each other "rulebookers" and so on.

Some of us disagree with you. It happens. Why is that a problem?

LOL...I agree totally. First off, I called no one person a rule booker. I said that I feel that some officials do not see the situation, they only see the citation. I dont know anyone personlly or their style; therefore, I would never say anything like that. Dan however did take a shot at me. He told me that if I werent ready to make the calls...of course that HE feels I should make...that maybe I shouldnt officiate. That is a shot.

We can agree to disagree. You make it sound as though you offered advice and I disagreed. I agreed. I also stated that there is more that just words in a rule book to be considered.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops

On to subjectiviy...you say there is none. Well when was the last time you watched a game and disagreed with a call that was made? If you did disagree, well thats subjectivity.

No it's not subjectivity. It's judgment and perspective. On a topic like travelling, either the pivot foot moved or it didn't. That has nothing to do with subjectivity. It's an absolute. If the foot moved, there's a travel. If the food didn't, there isnt'. Period.

Judgment only comes into play in determining illegal advantage and disadvantage. A hard foul has to be called by the book regardlesso f A/D. That's not a matter of judgment.

Judgment is only an issue on the slight fouls. the borderline hand-checks. The ref must determine whether an advantage was gained illegally, or a disadvantage conferred illegally. THIS IS NOT SUBJECTIVE!! It's the ref learning from her experience, listening, observing, questioning, and practicing how to make the best judgment.

If you haven't been experienceing, listening, observing, questrionsing and practicing for as many years as Dan, and Jurassic, then you really should do more listening and more observing and less arguing, and less self-defending. REpeating yourself over and over isn't a good way to get better.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I'm not giving you advice Nate, I'm giving you my opinion. And I really don't care too much if you appreciate it or not, to tell you the truth.

If your concern is whether players struggle or not with the way a particular game is being called then you are not ready to referee. If the game needs a lot of fouls called then you better be able to make them. And to hell with the players - either they adjust or they continue to hear lots of whistles.

As I said, not advice to you at all. Just my opinion.

Thanks for your opinion, but again you act as though you know me. You act as though you know if I should be allowed to officate. Again, you tell me that I am not ready to do something if its not what might DAN would do.

Your advice is taken. I APPRECIATE IT. I think highy of advice. However, you telling me what I can and cannot or should and should not do is outta line. I'm sure it violate this sites COC.

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by rainmaker

No it's not subjectivity. It's judgment and perspective. On a topic like travelling, either the pivot foot moved or it didn't. That has nothing to do with subjectivity. It's an absolute. If the foot moved, there's a travel. If the food didn't, there isnt'. Period.

Judgment only comes into play in determining illegal advantage and disadvantage. A hard foul has to be called by the book regardlesso f A/D. That's not a matter of judgment.

Judgment is only an issue on the slight fouls. the borderline hand-checks. The ref must determine whether an advantage was gained illegally, or a disadvantage conferred illegally. THIS IS NOT SUBJECTIVE!! It's the ref learning from her experience, listening, observing, questioning, and practicing how to make the best judgment.

If you haven't been experienceing, listening, observing, questrionsing and practicing for as many years as Dan, and Jurassic, then you really should do more listening and more observing and less arguing, and less self-defending. REpeating yourself over and over isn't a good way to get better.

If I remember correctly, we were talking about slight fouls, not hard obvious fouls. You call it judgement-- I call it subjectivity...Here's the dictionary definition...JUDGEMENT based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts.

I am not arguing ....just stating my opinion like you, defending it just like you. If you can convice me that I am wrong then, I'll see it different.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
What you may have called over the back, because of your position, I may have seen no contact form mine.

This is funny...and gives a little too much away about Nate.

[deecee]

we can all agree that we disagree and that judjement or subjectivity is part of the game and differs from official to official -- the only thing i can take from this argument is 2 tylenol and a nap...