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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2001, 08:53am
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AAU game, regional final. First half, 1 point game. Team A scores a goal. B1 steps out of bounds (both feet out) as she is her team's designated inbounder. She doesn't have the ball with her. One of her teammates taps the ball toward B1 who fails to cleanly catch the ball and it bobbles/hits off of her hands, hits the floor inbounds and bounces towards a player from team A who will have an uncontested layup if she gets the ball. B1 steps inbounds, dives, and taps the ball away from A1 toward a team B player. What's the call? After some responses I tell you how we handled it.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2001, 09:20am
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I would have just blown it dead and readminister since there was no inbound, and it think it is a flimsy case for a violation.

Not that the other coach will think so.
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Old Wed May 02, 2001, 09:52am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Watson
I would have just blown it dead and readminister since there was no inbound, and it think it is a flimsy case for a violation.

Not that the other coach will think so.
Brian,
I agree. That would in the same spirit as an errant bounce pass from me to the thrower-inner.
Easy to rationalize.
mick
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Old Wed May 02, 2001, 11:47am
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whoops let's do it over? Naw dont think so!

I wonder about rationalizing this to do over....

A just scores. B1 is out of bounds, B2 who is inbounds pushes/passes the ball to B1 for a throw in and B1 taps it back to B2.
Dont we see this alot?

As far as I can recall there is nothing that says that a player OOB has to have possession or control or anything to make an inbounds throw. If it is me who makes an errant pass to perosn who fumbles, it is the officials fault, in this case where the official is not involved and it is an ongoing play, why should we get involved? Ball is available and probably at disposal of team. a 5 second count would be starting. How many times in games do we see B2 catch it go OOB pass it to someone who is inbounds going OOBs to also throw the ball in catches it inbounds and carries it OOB, it that a whoops let's re do it too?
A player has the ball but is off balance fakes a pass to the left and steps in bounds the steps OOB to go back to the right for the throw-in, whoops off balance let's redo it?

If a player who was OOB actually picked up the ball and it "slipped" or was "fumbled" (WHOOPS) out of the player's hands into the waiting arms of a defender ( who might have been applying some pressure) would you redo it?

Where would you draw the line on an errant inbounds push/tip/pass. The rule was met ball went OOB a player put it back into play. I cant see a rule supporting this and not sure I would want to justify it to a coach who might be pressing..why I just took points away. Players do stupid things, In this case the player did not do a good inbounds pass and may have created a turnover. Players dont do good dribbles, shots or passes on the floor. I am not getting in the business of deciding this, Let the coach yell at his own kids, if the coach says something to me I'd respond back that kids were responsible for making a play like that. The coach is going to tel the kids to take the ball out right, guarantee they will the next time.

Whoops! lets do it again just doesnt amke it for me
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Old Wed May 02, 2001, 12:46pm
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I think there is a very big difference between a spot throwin where an official must handle the ball and a throwin following a made score. In the former, if the official hands or bounces the ball to the inbounder and it is fumbled in some way, we are to readminister the ball. However, in the latter circumstance, you had a player tap the ball to the inbounder. Once the player on the court taps the ball, it is at that team's disposal (actually, it may have been ruled so even before the tap, depending on the circumstances). Since your 5 second count should start at that point, you must consider whatever happened after that to be part of the inbounding play. If after having the ball make contact with her while standing OOB, B1 then enters the floor and touches the ball, it is an inbound violation.

Of course, depending on the level and the seriousness of the league or tournament, you may use your discretion and stop play, explain what the rule is and let them do it over. However, if this was a competitive league or tournament, then the rule is the rule. It's better to enforce it, then explain it. That way they actually remember it.
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Old Wed May 02, 2001, 12:55pm
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Lightbulb Re: whoops let's do it over? Naw dont think so!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kelvin green
I wonder about rationalizing this to do over....

Kelvin,
You bring a good argument.

Based on the fact that "the throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in" (7-6-1), and based on my opinion of when the ball is at the disposal of that player, I gotta have a do over.

I cannot see a moving ball bouncing off a player's fumbling fingers as being at the disposal of the player.

If I bounce to a free-thrower and he fumble-thumbs over the line, I have a redo, even though I made a proper bounce to him. And I think the end-line thing is in the same spirit.

Now, if the player OOB hits the ball with his fingers and makes an awkward motion for the purpose of pushing the ball onto the court from his fumble/touch, then I see the player's intent was to put the ball in play and I will allow that ball to become live.

mick


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 02, 2001, 01:16pm
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I think we are talking about two animals. To me, this does not sound like any kind of effort to inbound the ball. It was tapped to them and they were surprised/unskilled/not paying atention and could not secure possession of the ball. Yes, we see a lot of the "tap it back" inbound passes, but I don't think that is what happened here, hence bring it back in my opionion. And yes, I think that I have a fairly good grasp on knowing the difference of a mistake and an intended slap pass. If I thought it was a half arse attempt to make a cute pass, I say let team b get the easy 2.

We probably need to file this under "need to see", but by the description I don't think she had the opportunity to begin the throw in.
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Old Wed May 02, 2001, 03:24pm
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Re: Re: whoops let's do it over? Naw dont think so!

Quote:
Based on the fact that "the throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in" (7-6-1), and based on my opinion of when the ball is at the disposal of that player, I gotta have a do over.

I cannot see a moving ball bouncing off a player's fumbling fingers as being at the disposal of the player.



The ball was "at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in" when the player on the court tapped it toward the inbounder. If the player on the court had just picked up the ball and held it, you would have started your 5 second count, wouldn't you have? Of course. The rule doesn't state that the player who has the ball at his disposal has to be the one to inbound, only that the ball is at the disposal of a player on the team entitled to the throw-in. Since the official doesn't handle the ball on this type of throw-in, the mechanic about making sure the inbounder properly handles the ball when received from an official on a spot throw-in doesn't apply. They are two different situations.
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Old Wed May 02, 2001, 03:50pm
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Question Re: Re: Re: whoops let's do it over? Naw dont think so!

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Quote:
Based on the fact that "the throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in" (7-6-1), and based on my opinion of when the ball is at the disposal of that player, I gotta have a do over.

I cannot see a moving ball bouncing off a player's fumbling fingers as being at the disposal of the player.



The ball was "at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in" when the player on the court tapped it toward the inbounder. If the player on the court had just picked up the ball and held it, you would have started your 5 second count, wouldn't you have? Of course. The rule doesn't state that the player who has the ball at his disposal has to be the one to inbound, only that the ball is at the disposal of a player on the team entitled to the throw-in. Since the official doesn't handle the ball on this type of throw-in, the mechanic about making sure the inbounder properly handles the ball when received from an official on a spot throw-in doesn't apply. They are two different situations.
Mark,
As always you make sense.
  • Yes, I would start my 5 second count when the first player tapped the ball, or when the ball is at that teams disposal.

    But, given your broad interpretation, after a basket a ball, at the disposal of Team B, could strike B1 on his hip, or head, while B1 is OOB and facing elsewhere (at a Teammate, Cheerleader, Mom, shoe).
    Then the ball could bounce off B1's hip, head, or fingers inbounds. And you rule that inbounded? That doesn't feel very good where I am sitting.
    mick

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      #10 (permalink)  
    Old Wed May 02, 2001, 03:55pm
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    Question What age?

    I want to know what age we're talking about. If this is AAU-14, I'm probably going to blow it dead. If this is > 16 year-olds, we'll probably play it unless it is real obvious (and this wasn't described that way). In between I'll hope I'm the Lead!
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    Old Wed May 02, 2001, 04:02pm
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    Smile RE: What age?

    Quote:
    Originally posted by Richard Ogg
    I want to know what age we're talking about. If this is AAU-14, I'm probably going to blow it dead. If this is > 16 year-olds, we'll probably play it unless it is real obvious (and this wasn't described that way). In between I'll hope I'm the Lead!
    Richard,
    Yup, the level may cause a different interpretation.
    I am trying to understand the intent and spirit of the written word.
    mick
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      #12 (permalink)  
    Old Thu May 03, 2001, 08:43am
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    Re: What age?

    Quote:
    Originally posted by Richard Ogg
    I want to know what age we're talking about. If this is AAU-14, I'm probably going to blow it dead. If this is > 16 year-olds, we'll probably play it unless it is real obvious (and this wasn't described that way). In between I'll hope I'm the Lead!

    I agree with Ogg.
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      #13 (permalink)  
    Old Thu May 03, 2001, 10:26am
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    Yo Walt!

    What did you do????
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      #14 (permalink)  
    Old Thu May 03, 2001, 10:43am
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    I think the best way to sum this up is that there was no intent by the inbounder to throw in, thus blow it dead and and replay it. Mick, you have it right on the head.
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      #15 (permalink)  
    Old Thu May 03, 2001, 10:51am
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    Cool

    Dave: You are correct on this one. If there is 'NO INTENT' then you need to not penalize a team for a mistake. I agree with you. It comes down to the advantage versus disadvantage issue. I would blow the whistle and redo using my good judgement on this one. Wouldn't be hard to explain to either coach what had happened here.
    PS You can't start a five second count until the player is actually out of bounds!
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