point of interruption

[elecref]

The following is a question that we've had on our exam in the past. I would appreciate the groups opinions with the correct answer.

Prior to the game a technical foul is charged to Team A. While the ball is at the disposal of B1 for the first attempt, a double personal foul is called. Following the free throws for the technical foul the game resumes play with a jump ball with the two involved players. Rulimg: The offical is correct

I answered this as True. Since team control has not been established, the ball has to be put back into play via jump ball between the two players involved in the double personal. I understand the POI rule, but as previously stated, no team control has been established, thus no POI. Is their anything that I may be missing

[ChuckElias]

The official is not correct per FED rules. The official may be correct per NCAA rules, depending on what the technical foul was for.

In HS, the technical foul gives the offended team 2 FTs and the ball at midcourt. Although there is no team control until the FT shooter is holding or dribbling the live ball inbounds, the only time we go to the arrow for the POI is when there is no team control and no goal, infraction nor end of period is involved. Since there was an infraction involved here (the shooting foul), we don't need the arrow. Resume with the two FTs, then continue with the ball to the offended team at midcourt.

(Thanks for the email, assignmentmaker!)


[Edited by ChuckElias on Oct 3rd, 2005 at 05:17 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by elecref
The following is a question that we've had on our exam in the past. I would appreciate the groups opinions with the correct answer.

Prior to the game a technical foul is charged to Team A. While the ball is at the disposal of B1 for the first attempt, a double personal foul is called. Following the free throws for the technical foul the game resumes play with a jump ball with the two involved players. Rulimg: The offical is correct

I answered this as True. Since team control has not been established, the ball has to be put back into play via jump ball between the two players involved in the double personal. I understand the POI rule, but as previously stated, no team control has been established, thus no POI. Is their anything that I may be missing

I don't have the current year books, but ...

I'd answer "false." I think the POI is the continuation of B1's FTs for the T. Then, B gets the ball OOB, and the arrow is set toward A's basket.

[pauli]

Double personal foul? If you had a T prior to the game starting and B1 shooting, how could you have a double personal foul? I am administering the T foul shots with no players anywhere near each other.

[justacoach]

No quibble regarding the T but I take issue with this part of your statement...

Originally posted by pauli
I am administering the T foul shots with no players anywhere near each other.

Kindly provide rules citation for this limitation on player position.

[FrankHtown]

Once the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, the ball is live, and the fouls may be personal, not technical.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by FrankHtown
Once the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower, the ball is live, and the fouls may be personal, not technical.

Yup, you're right, Frank. Pauli is not questioning the personal/technical difference. He's saying that if you have a T to start the game (especially if the T is for something unsportsmanlike), it would be good game management to separate the two teams while the FT are being shot to avoid the possibility of two opponents squaring off.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by justacoach
No quibble regarding the T but I take issue with this part of your statement...

Kindly provide rules citation for this limitation on player position.

There is none. All ten players must be on the court during the FTs, but the nine who aren't shooting can be anywhere behind the FT line extended and the three-point line.
Most people incorrectly believe that the players must be behind the division line (midcourt) during technical FTs.

Chuck is correct on the POI resumption. This is new this year for NFHS. Last year the double personal foul would have necessitated a jump ball between the two fouling players.

[Lotto]

In NCAA, double personal fouls still go back to team in control, or to AP if there is no team control.

So suppose there is a double personal foul by A2 and B2 during the initial jump. We go to AP, but possession hasn't been established yet. Clearly we need to rejump. Do the jumpers have to be A2 and B2 (as some of the discussion here suggests)? Where in the NCAA rulebook does it say this?

In the original posters situation, under NCAA rules, team B has team control since the live ball is being held by B1. So the ball would go to team B after B1's second FT. Set the arrow in A's direction.

If the double foul occurs when the FT attempt is in flight, then we have no team control and the ball will be put in play with a jump.

Of course, it's hard to imagine exactly what chain of events would lead to a ref calling a double personal foul during a FT attempt with the lane cleared, but that's neither here nor there.

[David M]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
The official is not correct per FED rules. The official may be correct per NCAA rules, depending on what the technical foul was for.

In HS, the technical foul gives the offended team 2 FTs and the ball at midcourt. Although there is no team control until the FT shooter is holding or dribbling the live ball inbounds, the only time we go to the arrow for the POI is when there is no team control and no goal, infraction nor end of period is involved. Since there was an infraction involved here (the shooting foul), we don't need the arrow. Resume with the two FTs, then continue with the ball to the offended team at midcourt.

(Thanks for the email, assignmentmaker!)

I think it was discussed in another post that the ball would be inbounded at the POI. If the double foul occured someplace other than midcourt wouldn't the ball be inbounded at that spot?

[Edited by ChuckElias on Oct 3rd, 2005 at 05:17 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by David M
Originally posted by ChuckElias
I think it was discussed in another post that the ball would be inbounded at the POI. If the double foul occured someplace other than midcourt wouldn't the ball be inbounded at that spot?

David, if the POI were the throw-in, then yes. You would be correct, and we would put the ball in play at the spot closest to where the ball was when the fouls occurred.

But in this case, the POI is the FTs for the original infraction, which was a Technical foul. So we go to the POI, which is to shoot the FTs. Then after shooting the 2 FTs, the ensuing throw-in will be at midcourt, as it would be after any T (in HS).

[David M]

I know I must be missing something but didn't you say in another thread that the POI would be the spot of the foul and not the location of the ball?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Lotto
In NCAA, double personal fouls still go back to team in control, or to AP if there is no team control.

So suppose there is a double personal foul by A2 and B2 during the initial jump. We go to AP, but possession hasn't been established yet. Clearly we need to rejump. Do the jumpers have to be A2 and B2 (as some of the discussion here suggests)? Where in the NCAA rulebook does it say this?

Actually, this seems like a pretty good question to me for HS too. Does this change the old ruling about the involved players doing the re-jump? I haven't seen the new case books yet (although I will tonight), so I don't know if anything has changed. I can't lay my hands on my NCAA rulebook at the moment, so I can't help there, either.

In the original posters situation, under NCAA rules, team B has team control since the live ball is being held by B1. So the ball would go to team B after B1's second FT. Set the arrow in A's direction.

I don't think so Lotto. If the T was an indirect (dunking before the game, scorebook infraction, etc.), then we would shoot the FTs and resume with a jump ball. The double personals wouldn't change that, b/c the POI is not the throw-in; it's the FTs. So you shoot the FTs and then do whatever you would've done next, which is a jump ball.

If the original T was for dead ball contact or unsportsmanlike action, then the offended team would get the ball after the FTs, and I'd agree with what you said above.

If the double foul occurs when the FT attempt is in flight, then we have no team control and the ball will be put in play with a jump.

That depends on whether we're shooting the 1st or 2nd of the FTs, doesn't it?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by David M
I know I must be missing something but didn't you say in another thread that the POI would be the spot of the foul and not the location of the ball?

If I did, then I was mistaken. The new rule states that after a double foul, play is resumed from the POI. And part of the definition of POI is that the ball is put in play at the spot closest to where the ball was when play was interrupted.

[jritchie]

is dunking before the game considered unsporting??? it is indirect on coach, but direct to person doing it,so would it be out of bounds or jump ball??