3 Whistle vs. 2 Whistle

[eventnyc]

Our association is working on putting a proposal together for presentation to the athletic directors and coaches association. The proposal will be to institute a three whistle game at the varsity level during the entire 2006 - 2007 season. I would like to have some insight on how to present the proposal.

We will undoubtedly have to reduce our rates to accomodate the third official. I may also need some assistance on presenting the benefits to the officials as they will probably not be too keen on taking a pay cut.

Thanks for all your help!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by eventnyc
Our association is working on putting a proposal together for presentation to the athletic directors and coaches association. The proposal will be to institute a three whistle game at the varsity level during the entire 2006 - 2007 season. I would like to have some insight on how to present the proposal.

We will undoubtedly have to reduce our rates to accomodate the third official. I may also need some assistance on presenting the benefits to the officials as they will probably not be too keen on taking a pay cut.

Thanks for all your help!

I suppose it depends on what your refs are getting paid now, and what the pay cut will be. I'd be willing to take a 3rd official for a reasonable fee reduction.

As to the advantages - I think the biggest is that there's an extra person to "have your back" - everyone realizes that the coverage is better.

[Mregor]

I know that when Wisconsin was considering going to 3-person, the coaches voted against it. They were worried too many fouls would be called. The AD's will most likely be a hard sell due to the budget. On the other hand, some schools embraced the idea especially since it will be used come tournament time and they want their team to be used to it. I guess I don't have an answer for you, just ramblings. Good Luck and let us know how it turns out!

Mregor

[TravelinMan]

When I moved to NC where they do 3-man, the officials were SHOCKED that NY was still doing 2 man because in their mind it is a much more physical game in the Big Apple and it needs to be controlled even more than other states. Somehow I thought you should be aware of that perception.

[Macaroo]

Originally posted by TravelinMan
When I moved to NC where they do 3-man, the officials were SHOCKED that NY was still doing 2 man because in their mind it is a much more physical game in the Big Apple and it needs to be controlled even more than other states. Somehow I thought you should be aware of that perception.

And were you EQUALLY shocked by what the pay is for HS officials in the south compared to NY? That is a bigger adjustment than going from two-man to three-man.

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by Macaroo

And were you EQUALLY shocked by what the pay is for HS officials in the south compared to NY? That is a bigger adjustment than going from two-man to three-man.

Macaroo -

Nothing shocks me...... I'm from NY Less pay per game, but fuller schedule. In NY, there was a separate association for girls basketball, so I never got to do HS girls Bball. Not the case in NC. Of course, I don't know if that was good or bad Another advantage to 3-man is I feel I can officate more years (definitely. less grueling on the legs). I'm 59 (still in good shape) but as they say I get older every year while the players stay the same age....

[Old Dude Ref]

In Wisconsin starting this season we are going to 3 person at the State level, then 3 at the Sectional level in 2007 and finally to the Regional Final level in 2008. For this season it will add 40 officials to the State tourney roles (20 each for boys and girls). Our Director was surpised it passed our WIAA Board of Control and she has taken steps to get everyone ready for the transition. She's has asked each official's association for 2 reps to become certified to teach 3-person to the members.

There have been a few camps and clinics given this summer that has stressed the high school 3-person philosophy. It's gone very well but officials still need to work the games. May I suggest that you start with non-conference games. No one is keen on the idea of getting less pay but budgets are strapped and money is tight. Get ready to take less but you'll gain valuable experience and you must work at it to be good at it.

Lets face it. I don't care what part of the country you're from, 95% of games can be worked with 2 officials. We need to work at 2 person first and then three person will come. I suggest that you only take veterans who have a shot at working tournament ball first and work your way down the chain. Whatever your situation, you must be flexible.

Alot may depend on the number of officials you have in your area. If you're hurting for competent people in 2 person then forget about three. MAy you could work in crews of four. One pair does the preliminary game and then one of the two works with the two varsity officials. See if that would work. Good Luck

[Texas Aggie]

Since I'd rather work with one good partner than two average or lessor ones, from my standpoint, I'd be less inclined to take less money to add another official. Obviously, if there were two other quality officials, that would be fine, but I'm not sure even then I see the need. 3 for me was always a luxary until the scholarship college level (DII and above), then it began to become more of a necessity. I worked many 2 man games where the teams were up tempo, physical, playing above the rim (3 really helps on GT/BI), and with verbally abusive coaches. We survived.

Basically, its up to the coaches and schools. Whatever they want and are willing to pay for, they're going to get, and that's OK.

[Love this Game]

I read this thread when it was first posted and I must say this.

In Ohio we have been doing three man for years.

When we first started doing three man I hated it. I did not like it from the stand point that a three man crew saved a lot of careers. All of the varsity games and all tournament games have three man crews!

A lot of official were on there way out ready to retire. There were guys who could barely move up the court as it is but had there careers saved by three man.

I had mixed feelings of a three man. And i still feel this way.

I am an official that really gets in to the game, I like to run, I like to be part of the flow of the game. I think I work harder and call a much better game in a two man just because I know I have half and my partner has the other half.

But in a three man people get lazy, I dont think they work as hard. Now dont get me wrong when you have two teams the move up and down the court, and who are banging in the paint having a three man really helps.

But i will say this, find you a crew that you like to work with and try to stay with them. Working with a person or persons who does not know how to work a three man especaiallly when it is time to rotate it really makes it rough.

THESE OPINIONS ARE SOLEY BASED ON MY OWN OPINION, NOT THE VIEWS OF THIS BOARD!!!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Love this Game
I think I work harder and call a much better game in a two man just because I know I have half and my partner has the other half.

I find myself doing the exact opposite. Obviously, you need to do a bit more work in a 2-person crew, but I find that, with only one partner, I ball-watch too much and I worry too much about who has what coverage. When I'm working a three-person crew, I find that I relax and stay in my primary more.

Now, FWIW, I only reffed one year with two-person crews, then had three years of three-person crews, so I consider myself pretty good and pretty comfortable with the 3-person rotation.

(That said, I'm scared about switching back to 2-person for this upcoming season.)

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

I find myself doing the exact opposite. Obviously, you need to do a bit more work in a 2-person crew, but I find that, with only one partner, I ball-watch too much and I worry too much about who has what coverage. When I'm working a three-person crew, I find that I relax and stay in my primary more.

Now, FWIW, I only reffed one year with two-person crews, then had three years of three-person crews, so I consider myself pretty good and pretty comfortable with the 3-person rotation.

(That said, I'm scared about switching back to 2-person for this upcoming season.)

I myself love to work off ball, when I do a lot of summer ball, i have a partner that i do a lot of games with. And even when i work with a new partner, they find out quick that I am off ball when i am supposed to be.

I was doing a game with a 2nd year official. He asked me abt a call that was in his primary, I told him in a two man i keep the ball in teh corner of my eye just incase it swings in my area but 98% of the time when I dont have the ball. I am not watching.

I think that a three man makes people a little more relaxed. Because they feel that they have someone else watching ther earea. Just my opinion

[Old Dude Ref]

I like 3 on a big college floor - more room to stay off the floor and get the best angles. But in high school especially in a cramped gym, it is not nessessary. Girls games - forget it. If you and your partner can't keep up with a girls game then please get in shape or get out! They'll have 3 for the girls only because they have to and that's fine.

I agree with it extending the careers of older officials from the standpoint that its should NOT be for that reason. Our Director has vowed that you WILL BE IN SHAPE or you won't work at the highest levels of the tournament. She's done a great job (with few hiccups) getting the best qualified officials in her three years on the job.

I've had the same partner for a long time and we work very well together. A third should be used on big ball games when there are big boys who are going to bang.

As far as watching off the ball in 2- man. I'm ALWAYS aware of where the ball is. If my area is quiet then I watch my partner's area if he's on-ball. We always need to help out.

[Old Dude Ref]

How much does everyone get paid in their respective area?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Old Dude Ref
I like 3 on a big college floor - more room to stay off the floor and get the best angles. But in high school especially in a cramped gym, it is not nessessary. Girls games - forget it. If you and your partner can't keep up with a girls game then please get in shape or get out! They'll have 3 for the girls only because they have to and that's fine.

Not sure what type of gyms you work in, it is not uncommon for some of us to work in the big gyms with a lot of room. Even in the smaller gyms there is enough room to get around on the floor. I am not sure really what the floor size has to do with working 2 or 3 man. You still have to work off the end line as the lead. And all of us do not work girl's basketball, so that is not an issue either.

Originally posted by Old Dude Ref
I agree with it extending the careers of older officials from the standpoint that its should NOT be for that reason. Our Director has vowed that you WILL BE IN SHAPE or you won't work at the highest levels of the tournament. She's done a great job (with few hiccups) getting the best qualified officials in her three years on the job.

You are right; extending careers has nothing to do with whether 3 Man is good or bad. The coverage is what is better. The system is better for the games. Maybe this applies to where you live, but around where I live working very athletic players is not at all unusual. It can be the norm if you want to know the truth.

Originally posted by Old Dude Ref
I've had the same partner for a long time and we work very well together. A third should be used on big ball games when there are big boys who are going to bang.

I have worked with certain partners for many games as well. Where I live you work with different partners all the time. Not sure what that has to do with that conversation.

Originally posted by Old Dude Ref
As far as watching off the ball in 2- man. I'm ALWAYS aware of where the ball is. If my area is quiet then I watch my partner's area if he's on-ball. We always need to help out.

Well in 3 person you can have one or two officials watching off ball. I am really not sure what the point you are trying to make. Not everyone is working such sorry ball that 2 man can cover everything.

Peace

[ace]

I believe we have beat this topic about as much as we have - belt/beltless, micro-mesh/poly, and brand of shoes.... the new fad seems to be pre-game jackests.