Patient Whistle

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Robmoz
I see way too much contact being passed on even though the offensive player gets through it. Consistency in the application of what is legal vs. illegal contact should not be overshawdowed by the risk of the ticky-tack or chintzy moniker of a call.

I think you've got the right idea. I do think that many less-experienced officials have a tendancy to equate "patient whistle" with "let 'em play". There is a difference. I'm still working on that aspect; it's somewhat easy to understand the concept, but sometimes difficult in practice. But, that's the beauty of camps!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by lrpalmer3

This is not true. I have had coaches say that they want the foul, particularly if it's the opposing team's star.

"Coach, your player was still able to blow by the defender."
"Coach, your player was still able to get to the basket."

I am talking about my experiences, not everyone else's experiences. You very well might have had a coach that wants the foul 30 feet away from the basket and not the easy lay up. Coaches around here want the easy basket.

Peace

[ChrisSportsFan]

My point was made and is similar to what Rut is saying, a handcheck that steers a kid and keeps him from advancing is a foul but a handcheck that A1 still fights thru could be left alone. I hate hearing the whistle just as the kid breaks thru and is laying the ball in the hole. Referee the result of the contact and not just the contact.

I suppose in a perfect world we could start right off with an obvious handcheck foul and there would be no more the rest of the night.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
...I suppose in a perfect world we could start right off with an obvious handcheck foul and there would be no more the rest of the night.

This is my point. Make that call from the git go and you may not have to deal with making more difficult decisions on contact as the game progresses.

[Junker]

Calling advantage/disadvantage differs from night to night, depending on the quality of athletes on the floor. I see no problem with being patient and waiting for a play to develop, it's something I am actually working on getting better with. Along these lines, last weekend I worked the Iowa Games (think state olympics) and had a 4A team made up of good players from a bunch of large schools against a small 1A school's V/JV. It was a nightmare to call. The 1A fans really didn't like us but we were trying to call the game the same on both ends. It was possibly the hardest game to call I've ever had.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by Junker
last weekend I worked the Iowa Games (think state olympics) and had a 4A team made up of good players from a bunch of large schools against a small 1A school's V/JV. It was a nightmare to call. The 1A fans really didn't like us but we were trying to call the game the same on both ends. It was possibly the hardest game to call I've ever had.

Why's that?

[Joe McCain]

Folks, Mr. Jean's original question didn't differentiate between post play, a drive for the basket, or shot taken from the floor, even though he did ask about the possibility of eliminating the and-one foul shot.

There are a number of reasons to call the foul even though the offensive player somehow managed to get the bucket to drop. Some of these for me are things like: if I fail to call this now, will it continue, and will I have to deal with an out of control game later; if I fail to call this now, will it be likely to cause someone to get hurt; what message am I sending (to the players, the coaches and the benches)by calling this foul, or by passing on it? There are many more. I never stray far from the idea that a part of my job is to ensure a safe place to conduct a game.

Using the above criteria, an example of a time I would most CERTAINLY call a foul no matter if the ball goes in or not would be: A1 dribble drives to the basket and just as A1 becomes airborn for the layup and is about to move past B1, B1 pokes A1 in the ribs with a finger or two. This can be tricky because sophisticated offensive players have been known to fake this particular foul, so it is ESSENTIAL to have great position to be able to make this call. You can always tell when this has happened because you see the small poke to the ribs, and you watch while A1's whole body goes into a minor convulsion.

The contact might very well be slight, practically nothing at all for an agressive offensive player, yet I submit to you that B1 gained a significant advantage on the play. Further, should I pass on this I fear the message I'm sending to everyone. I hope this helps a wee bit and hasn't completely confused you.

Lastly, (at least for this posting, wink)

What's a fan?

To sum this all up, IMHO a patient whistle is paramount to good officiating. I could tell you some horror stories about times when I've screwed it up, so its something I always pre-game and am constantly working to improve.

Great Question by the way Jean.

[Edited by Joe McCain on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 03:57 AM]

[tomegun]

Wow, Jo McCain, I have never seen an offensive player fake someone poking him/her in the ribs. I guess I've never seen an offensive player fake it when someone actually makes contact with them ever. Just kidding.

It is up to all of us what we allow in our game and what we don't allow. If we are talking about whether a handcheck re-routes a player or not we could be consistent to see the play through. Mr McCain's example isn't really about seeing the whole play IMO, it is more about eliminating some BS early in the game.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Joe McCain
an example of a time I would most CERTAINLY call a foul no matter if the ball goes in or not would be: A1 dribble drives to the basket and just as A1 becomes airborn for the layup and is about to move past B1, B1 pokes A1 in the ribs with a finger or two.

I've always considered this to be a really ticky-tack call. The shooter isn't being pushed or disadvantaged in any way. The poke isn't enough to hurt.

Does anybody call this on a regular basis?

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by Joe McCain
Using the above criteria, an example of a time I would most CERTAINLY call a foul no matter if the ball goes in or not would be: A1 dribble drives to the basket and just as A1 becomes airborn for the layup and is about to move past B1, B1 pokes A1 in the ribs with a finger or two.

You're setting up a dangerous precedent with this. I'm with Chuck, contact on this is VERY minor, and if you start calling it, be prepared to call all sorts of other little niggling touches, too. I'd have to be VERY sure that the shooter was harmed - isn't THAT more in line with "patient whistle"? Your take seems just the opposite.

Originally posted by Joe McCain
This can be tricky because sophisticated offensive players have been known to fake this particular foul....You can always tell when this has happened because you see the small poke to the ribs, and you watch while A1's whole body goes into a minor convulsion.

I've been reffing for almost 10 years and I've NEVER seen either of these things happen - especially the convulsions part.

Originally posted by Joe McCain
....so it is ESSENTIAL to have great position to be able to make this call.

You'd better be able to sell it, too. Because everyone else in the gym will be wondering what the hell you just called.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I've always considered this to be a really ticky-tack call. The shooter isn't being pushed or disadvantaged in any way. The poke isn't enough to hurt.

Does anybody call this on a regular basis?

I don't think I've ever called it. If it's enough to get my attention I'll have a quick word with the guy doing the poking ("knock that sh1t off").

[tomegun]

Wow, I thought I was the only one that doesn't do this and hasn't seen this faked.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
Wow, I thought I was the only one that doesn't do this and hasn't seen this faked.

The "pro" move is a quick jab or tap to the elbow of the shooting arm or a quick nudge to the hip of a jumpshooter beside you. Some coaches still teach those subtle l'il moves. Reggie Miller used both of those his whole career.

A finger jab that makes a shooter on the drive's "whole body go into a minor convulsion"? Never seen that one personally. Have seen sumthin' like a quick push on the hip of the shooter by the defender just as the shooter gets airborne. I just treat the contact on that one like any other shooter contact--if I thought it affected the shot, I called the foul. If not, fuggedaboutit.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The "pro" move is a quick jab or tap to the elbow of the shooting arm or a quick nudge to the hip of a jumpshooter

Right, and I'll call that every time, b/c that bump on the elbow really does affect the flight of the ball. The poke to the belly doesn't, as far as I can tell.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Right, and I'll call that every time, b/c that bump on the elbow really does affect the flight of the ball. The poke to the belly doesn't, as far as I can tell.

I've seen some players that were absolutely great with the elbow tap. I remember saying to one guy years ago sumthin' like " You got me that time but you won't get me again". He laughed and replied "you wanna bet?". Next half, I got a shooter in my primary screaming at me because his jumpshot just ended up amongst the cheerleaders, and this clown of a defender is smirking at me and whispering "told you so". Not much I could do but grit my teeth and mutter under my breath. I knew he did it but I didn't see it- so I couldn't call it. At least he whispered it to me after he did it instead of laughing out loud at me.