Screaming "BALL BALL BALL" during girls games

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I can't see the difference between an official who *currently* coaches and an official who *formerly* coached. Both sets of people experienced the game from both sides.

Regardless, I would still bet that many, if not the majority of officials you see at your level (middle school roughly?) are actively coaching basketball somewhere. Maybe not 90%, but certainly not 0%, making you non-unique.

I agree.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by drinkeii
Also - if we weren't, as officials, responsible for anything that occurs out on the floor safety-wise, as you say, then why would we need any kind of liability insurance? The coaches would, in your scenario, because they're responsible for excessive contact and fouling, regardless of what the officials choose to call.

You argue that owning insurance is equivalent to accepting responsibility for any liability.

My insurance agent has a different take on this. Maybe he's unique.

[ChrisSportsFan]

[/B][/QUOTE]

See - another post from an official who thinks they are always right. The coaches don't have much control over the contact on the floor. If the refs pass on fouls that allow the game to get out of control, it is most assuradly their fault. Yes, the coaches can tell their teams to go out and head-hunt, or to play nice... what the players do isn't always completely up to the coach. And there are many coaches who teach dirty tactics, to gain an advantage, hoping the refs don't notice or call it.

In this case, it wasn't your fault. But to say that the officials have no responsibility for the safety of the players, and that it is the coach's fault is completely wrong. Not an opinion... that is just completely wrong.

And what opinion is that? I have a slightly different take on things, because I don't believe any official (myself included) is perfect. Some of you guys do. And that is why you're saying you refuse to accept any responsibility when players do get hurt because of a lack of game control. The coaches are certainly within their rights to complain if a number of injuries occur in a game - the refs didn't keep it under control. Or the otehr option is that it is really horribly sloppy play, and that the officials couldn't do anything about it - that is a rare case, from what I have seen. Most sloppy play doesn't lead to injuries - only hard fouls that don't get called consistently.

I would love to hear the opinion you have of me - I attempt to protect the players as a ref, and as a coach. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

Also - if we weren't, as officials, responsible for anything that occurs out on the floor safety-wise, as you say, then why would we need any kind of liability insurance? The coaches would, in your scenario, because they're responsible for excessive contact and fouling, regardless of what the officials choose to call.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I would say that this is a shared responsibility with the coaches and officials. Some officials just flat don't know how to get kids to knock off the rough play but they still try to. That's a great time for the coaches to help them out by controlling their own team. That is, if they really do want the game to be controlled. ?? If a coach doesn't want his kid getting hurt in a rough game that's being officiated loosly or even if it's called closely and they still kepp fouling, don't let your kids drive the lane like a wild Banche who's hoping to draw a foul, and they'll lessen their odds.

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Jul 6th, 2005 at 09:40 PM]

[drinkeii]

I quit.

Apparently the following is true:

1) I know nothing about officiating.
2) I am not a good official for asking questions.
3) My idea of sportsmanship is not in line with what everyone else's is.
4) I am the only one who cares about trying to officiate a good game, and have a partner who does the same.
5) I am not responsible in any way for the actions of the players on the floor - only coachs are.
6) It is wrong to expect your partner to have a decent amount of training and experience relative to the level of game you are placed on with them.
7) Coaches should never ever presume that an official made a bad call, because officials never do.
8) Officials should never presume their partner made a bad call, because they never do.
9) Officials should never presume that they themselves made a bad call, because that never happens - every call or no-call an official makes is perfect and unquestionable.
10) This message board has a lot of people on it who feel that they are the only one who can possibly be right about a particular topic. Anyone who disagrees is a bad official.

Thank you for all of your opinions on the various topics that I have asked about. I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into them, althought not as much the personal attacks telling me I should confine my actions to coaching or that I am a bad official.

I shall confine my future commentary to asking questions as I have done in the past - when I hit a question one of my student officials asks that I cant answer, or I have an unusual situation come up, I will post it and look for answers. For that purpose, this message board is a valuable tool. Telling people they are bad officials is not a valid purpose of this board, when you have never seen that official work.

But I am tired of bringing up what I consider to be reasonable points, and having them shoved back in my face, often with sarcasm, saying that they are idealistic. I set high standards. I don't always meet them. But I have learned that the best way to get good at something is set high standards. I do it for myself, I do it for the students I teach, and for the players I coach. I try to teach them the right things to do, and the right way to do them. I do not allow them to play cheaply or dirtily during games, and pull them out if they do. I do expect them to be safe when they go out on the floor - maybe this is an unrealistic expectation. Accidents happen. Accidents are, for the most part, preventable. A lack of willingness to accept responsibility for something you have control over does not mean the responsibility isn't there - only that you see yourself as above it.

Ignorance is bliss. I'm rather un-blissful, because I am informed, not ignorant.

Again thanks for the opinions.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:36 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by drinkeii
. Accidents happen. Accidents are, for the most part, preventable.

The only way to prevent "accidents" on the basketball floor is to not play. Few if any of the injuries that have happened in the games I've worked have been caused by uncalled fouls (this would be between 7 and 10 thousand games over seven years).

The problem in this thread isn't our arrogance or refusal to admit that we're wrong. It's your complete unwillingness to let anyone else have the right to set their own standards. I certainly hope I never have one of your games to work, and that I never have you as a partner. I am incapable of giving 100% every game, and I don't want to be held to that standard. Good enough is good enough. Period.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by drinkeii
I quit.

Apparently the following is true:

1) I know nothing about officiating.
2) I am not a good official for asking questions.
3) My idea of sportsmanship is not in line with what everyone else's is.
4) I am the only one who cares about trying to officiate a good game, and have a partner who does the same.
5) I am not responsible in any way for the actions of the players on the floor - only coachs are.
6) It is wrong to expect your partner to have a decent amount of training and experience relative to the level of game you are placed on with them.
7) Coaches should never ever presume that an official made a bad call, because officials never do.
8) Officials should never presume their partner made a bad call, because they never do.
9) Officials should never presume that they themselves made a bad call, because that never happens - every call or no-call an official makes is perfect and unquestionable.
10) This message board has a lot of people on it who feel that they are the only one who can possibly be right about a particular topic. Anyone who disagrees is a bad official.

Thank you for all of your opinions on the various topics that I have asked about. I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into them, althought not as much the personal attacks telling me I should confine my actions to coaching or that I am a bad official.

I shall confine my future commentary to asking questions as I have done in the past - when I hit a question one of my student officials asks that I cant answer, or I have an unusual situation come up, I will post it and look for answers. For that purpose, this message board is a valuable tool. Telling people they are bad officials is not a valid purpose of this board, when you have never seen that official work.

But I am tired of bringing up what I consider to be reasonable points, and having them shoved back in my face, often with sarcasm, saying that they are idealistic. I set high standards. I don't always meet them. But I have learned that the best way to get good at something is set high standards. I do it for myself, I do it for the students I teach, and for the players I coach. I try to teach them the right things to do, and the right way to do them. I do not allow them to play cheaply or dirtily during games, and pull them out if they do. I do expect them to be safe when they go out on the floor - maybe this is an unrealistic expectation. Accidents happen. Accidents are, for the most part, preventable. A lack of willingness to accept responsibility for something you have control over does not mean the responsibility isn't there - only that you see yourself as above it.

Ignorance is bliss. I'm rather un-blissful, because I am informed, not ignorant.

Again thanks for the opinions.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:36 PM]

Hmmm,

Generalize much?



Must be lonely up there on the "high road" all by yourself.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by drinkeii
I quit.

Apparently the following is true:

1) I know nothing about officiating.
2) I am not a good official for asking questions.
3) My idea of sportsmanship is not in line with what everyone else's is.
4) I am the only one who cares about trying to officiate a good game, and have a partner who does the same.
5) I am not responsible in any way for the actions of the players on the floor - only coachs are.
6) It is wrong to expect your partner to have a decent amount of training and experience relative to the level of game you are placed on with them.
7) Coaches should never ever presume that an official made a bad call, because officials never do.
8) Officials should never presume their partner made a bad call, because they never do.
9) Officials should never presume that they themselves made a bad call, because that never happens - every call or no-call an official makes is perfect and unquestionable.
10) This message board has a lot of people on it who feel that they are the only one who can possibly be right about a particular topic. Anyone who disagrees is a bad official.

Thank you for all of your opinions on the various topics that I have asked about. I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into them, althought not as much the personal attacks telling me I should confine my actions to coaching or that I am a bad official.

I shall confine my future commentary to asking questions as I have done in the past - when I hit a question one of my student officials asks that I cant answer, or I have an unusual situation come up, I will post it and look for answers. For that purpose, this message board is a valuable tool. Telling people they are bad officials is not a valid purpose of this board, when you have never seen that official work.

But I am tired of bringing up what I consider to be reasonable points, and having them shoved back in my face, often with sarcasm, saying that they are idealistic. I set high standards. I don't always meet them. But I have learned that the best way to get good at something is set high standards. I do it for myself, I do it for the students I teach, and for the players I coach. I try to teach them the right things to do, and the right way to do them. I do not allow them to play cheaply or dirtily during games, and pull them out if they do. I do expect them to be safe when they go out on the floor - maybe this is an unrealistic expectation. Accidents happen. Accidents are, for the most part, preventable. A lack of willingness to accept responsibility for something you have control over does not mean the responsibility isn't there - only that you see yourself as above it.

Ignorance is bliss. I'm rather un-blissful, because I am informed, not ignorant.

Again thanks for the opinions.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:36 PM]

Get off your freaking high horse.

You are making broad, uninformed generalizations and call out everyone else, without seeing them work. You know what you claim we are doing.

You say everyone that does not agree with your view are officials that will never admit to being wrong. Time to look in the mirror, it is not a coincidence that nobody has fully agreed with you...hmmm, perhaps it is you?

My money is on you being just what you accuse others of being. Your posts scream of hypocrisy.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by drinkeii

Ignorance is bliss. I'm rather un-blissful, because I am informed, not ignorant.

It's lonely at the top, isn't it?

Lah me!

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by drinkeii
I quit.

Apparently the following is true:

1) I know nothing about officiating.
2) I am not a good official for asking questions.
3) My idea of sportsmanship is not in line with what everyone else's is.
4) I am the only one who cares about trying to officiate a good game, and have a partner who does the same.
5) I am not responsible in any way for the actions of the players on the floor - only coachs are.
6) It is wrong to expect your partner to have a decent amount of training and experience relative to the level of game you are placed on with them.
7) Coaches should never ever presume that an official made a bad call, because officials never do.
8) Officials should never presume their partner made a bad call, because they never do.
9) Officials should never presume that they themselves made a bad call, because that never happens - every call or no-call an official makes is perfect and unquestionable.
10) This message board has a lot of people on it who feel that they are the only one who can possibly be right about a particular topic. Anyone who disagrees is a bad official.

Thank you for all of your opinions on the various topics that I have asked about. I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into them, althought not as much the personal attacks telling me I should confine my actions to coaching or that I am a bad official.

I shall confine my future commentary to asking questions as I have done in the past - when I hit a question one of my student officials asks that I cant answer, or I have an unusual situation come up, I will post it and look for answers. For that purpose, this message board is a valuable tool. Telling people they are bad officials is not a valid purpose of this board, when you have never seen that official work.

But I am tired of bringing up what I consider to be reasonable points, and having them shoved back in my face, often with sarcasm, saying that they are idealistic. I set high standards. I don't always meet them. But I have learned that the best way to get good at something is set high standards. I do it for myself, I do it for the students I teach, and for the players I coach. I try to teach them the right things to do, and the right way to do them. I do not allow them to play cheaply or dirtily during games, and pull them out if they do. I do expect them to be safe when they go out on the floor - maybe this is an unrealistic expectation. Accidents happen. Accidents are, for the most part, preventable. A lack of willingness to accept responsibility for something you have control over does not mean the responsibility isn't there - only that you see yourself as above it.

Ignorance is bliss. I'm rather un-blissful, because I am informed, not ignorant.

Again thanks for the opinions.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:36 PM]

#4 is definatly wrong.
Don't agree with #5, 7, 8, 9, or 10.
Regarding #6- hopefully, but if not, we'll get thru it.
All the rest I agree with what YOU said except the bliss stuff.

[SeanFitzRef]

Dave,

No need to go off on the deep end, all that was stated originally was that you have to be realistic, not idealistic, in what you're expecting from a summer league game. Where you got the other 'information' for your ten point whitewash is not understood.

You asked a question, you received answers. I understand that you set a high standard level on yourself and others, but you 've just gotta see that not everyone looks at it like you do. Summer basketball is just that: Summer Basketball. Summer good, summer bad. I've never heard of any team being "Summer State Champs". It is a good learning ground for players, coaches AND officials. But some people run tourneys only with the intent of getting teams in and making money. As mentioned in another post, do some research before signing up to play. There are a lot of officials that take pride in what they do, whenever they step on the court. But, there are also some officials that are strictly 'chasing the dollar', and will only work to collect money in the summer.

[26 Year Gap]

Players are 2-3 INCHES from another's face? Think about that for a moment. Look at a ruler. Is that really the statement you are making? And there is no body contact I suppose with someone 2-3 inches from the opponent's face.



[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:23 PM]

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap
Players are 2-3 INCHES from another's face? Think about that for a moment. Look at a ruler. Is that really the statement you are making? And there is no body contact I suppose with someone 2-3 inches from the opponent's face.



[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:23 PM]

Yes - i am not exaggerating. 2-3 inches (6-9cm or so) from the opponent's face, screaming "BALL BALL BALL" so close flecks of spit are hitting them.

I do not care to get back into the argument - just answering a simple question.

[BBall_Junkie]

After reading 6 pages of this, I am amazed at your case David and I see no logic in it. Numerous referees who have years of experience and have spent collectively several thousands of dollars on camps and clinics to further understand the rules, mechanics and nuances of the game, have told you that in no way is this act a Technical foul by any definition or interp of the rule and case book. Then to follow-up with they are all high and mighty and don't admit when they make a bad call is ludicrous. If you read through the thousands of threads on this board, I bet you will find a post from just about all of them that says basically, "Wow... I kicked one but good in a game I had last night!". As a coach (read: educator), I find your propensity for generalizations a bit scary.

Quite simply put, this is why this situation is not a "T" and never will be:

Coaches from the top levels down teach their players to communicate loudly with each other especially on defense. Call out picks, call out cutters, call out post settings, call out defensive sets, etc, etc. I work an NBA team's scrimmages on occasion where I live and I can't tell you how many times this NBA coach has stopped the scrimmage in mid-set to ream out a player for not communicating something defensively.

Specific to your situation, the coach wants the defender on ball to communicate to his/her teammates that s/he is on ball and they do this loudly to ensure the teammate hear it. Similarly, if the player picks up the ball and does not have a dribble you will hear, "DEAD, DEAD, DEAD" or something similar. Additionally, most coaches want the defender up tight on his/her opponent. This makes the offensive player uncomfortable (if done right) just by the fact that s/he is in their space. It makes post entries difficult and has a tendency to rattle some players. Now the fact that they are taught to play close defensively and loudly communicate with their teammates by yelling ball, ball, ball or something similar does not warrant a T by any stretch. If the yelling also, contributes the rattling of the player, well then the other coach needs to toughen his players up a bit.

Conversely, if the defensive player is up tight yelling "YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK"... well then we have an usporting T and something to talk about.

See the difference?

For the record, I have no problem, telling a coach that I missed one, when I know for a fact I booted it. Sometimes its not right away, because it does not make sense to approach an angry lion, but once he has simmered down a bit, during a FT or the like, I will slide on over to him, and tell him what I thought of that previous call.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by drinkeii

Yes - i am not exaggerating. 2-3 inches (6-9cm or so) from the opponent's face, screaming "BALL BALL BALL" so close flecks of spit are hitting them.

I do not care to get back into the argument - just answering a simple question.

I can see the concern here, 2 inches is pretty close. I've never seen this. I can't imagine it happening this way without contact, which could then be called a foul. I expect most of us are thinking of distances more like 6 inches to a foot or more apart. I've not seen much defense at all that involves 2 inch separation. I think if I saw the case you're describing, and the distance was really only 2 inches, I'd call a foul. THere's got to be some contact in there somewhere!

[johnny1784]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
[B]

Originally posted by drinkeii
I quit.

Apparently the following is true:

1) I know nothing about officiating.
2) I am not a good official for asking questions.
3) My idea of sportsmanship is not in line with what everyone else's is.
4) I am the only one who cares about trying to officiate a good game, and have a partner who does the same.
5) I am not responsible in any way for the actions of the players on the floor - only coachs are.
6) It is wrong to expect your partner to have a decent amount of training and experience relative to the level of game you are placed on with them.
7) Coaches should never ever presume that an official made a bad call, because officials never do.
8) Officials should never presume their partner made a bad call, because they never do.
9) Officials should never presume that they themselves made a bad call, because that never happens - every call or no-call an official makes is perfect and unquestionable.
10) This message board has a lot of people on it who feel that they are the only one who can possibly be right about a particular topic. Anyone who disagrees is a bad official.

Thank you for all of your opinions on the various topics that I have asked about. I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into them, althought not as much the personal attacks telling me I should confine my actions to coaching or that I am a bad official.

I shall confine my future commentary to asking questions as I have done in the past - when I hit a question one of my student officials asks that I cant answer, or I have an unusual situation come up, I will post it and look for answers. For that purpose, this message board is a valuable tool. Telling people they are bad officials is not a valid purpose of this board, when you have never seen that official work.

But I am tired of bringing up what I consider to be reasonable points, and having them shoved back in my face, often with sarcasm, saying that they are idealistic. I set high standards. I don't always meet them. But I have learned that the best way to get good at something is set high standards. I do it for myself, I do it for the students I teach, and for the players I coach. I try to teach them the right things to do, and the right way to do them. I do not allow them to play cheaply or dirtily during games, and pull them out if they do. I do expect them to be safe when they go out on the floor - maybe this is an unrealistic expectation. Accidents happen. Accidents are, for the most part, preventable. A lack of willingness to accept responsibility for something you have control over does not mean the responsibility isn't there - only that you see yourself as above it.

Ignorance is bliss. I'm rather un-blissful, because I am informed, not ignorant.

Again thanks for the opinions.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:36 PM]

God never makes a mistake...
But she was wrong...

She made a huge mistake creating "drinkeii's" intellectual mind and it is extremely sad that you are a high school basketball official.