Screaming "BALL BALL BALL" during girls games

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by drinkeii

I've heard it off and on for the 6 years I've been reffing. This was the first time that someone told me that it could be considered unsportsmanlike. I made the comparison to soccer myself, because in soccer, there is a specifically enumerated penalty - "Deliberate Verbal Tactics". I don't consider this a weak comparison, even though the two are completely different sports. I would think that in most sports, except maybe football, getting in an opponent's face and screaming at them, regardless of what is said, would be a foul or violation of some sort. Passing it off as communication to teammates is, to me, a rather weak excuse, especially considering a coach above admitted that the purpose was to distract the ball handler and make them throw a bad pass, along with informing their teammates that they had picked up their dribble. It seems to fall under gamesmanship to me - practices in sports which are technically not illegal, but attempt to get around the rules in an unfair or unsportsmanlike manner.

But, as I said above, the rules don't seem to support my feeling that this isn't part of the game. Except in the most extreme cases, I doubt I'd even warn someone about this being a problem, since I don't feel I have the support of the rules or of the officiating community at large for a call such as a T for this.

Then again, when the rules required excessive swinging of the elbows without contact to be a T, refs in general refused to call it, and the rules changed back to making it a violation. (This was in the past 2-3 years of rules changes, I believe)

Again, thanks for the opinions.

While, this is the basketball forum and others have done a fine job of addressing your question from a basketball perspective, I believe that part of the problem here is that you are even misunderstanding what is unsporting in NFHS soccer. So, I'm going to say a few things from that angle.

You have compared the yelling of "ball, ball, ball..." to high school soccer's deliberate verbal tactics rule.

While it is true that 12-8-1f(4) in the 2004-05 NFHS soccer rules book says, "A player, coach or bench personnel shall be cautioned (yellow card) for unsporting conduct, including, but not limited to: ...
4. deliberate verbal tactics;"
you are not properly grasping the spirit and intent of what that rule covers.

The accompanying case play 12.8.1 Situation D gives a good example of what is meant by unsporting verbal tactics. It states:
"Player A is waiting to receive a ball in the air. Opponent B, who is behind A, shouts "I'll take it" in an obvious attempt to deceive A into thinking B is a teammate calling for the ball. RULING: Stop play, caution B for unsportsmanlike conduct and restart with an indirect free kick by Team A at the spot of the ball."
(Note: This coming year the restart will occur from the spot of the misconduct due to a rule change.)

Notice that it is the deceit that is being punished as unsporting, not what is being said. While some deception clearly is allowed during the course of the game, (faking a shot or receiving a pass aka "dummying") certain deceitful acts cross the line of fair play and are prohibited. Pretending to be a teammate of a player who is not in a position to see another person is clearly out the line. I have little doubt that the NFHS committee made this decision for safety reasons. They are consistent throughout all the sports which they govern in protecting players from things out of their visual field. (Take a look at blind screens in basketball.)

Another good example would be a player unfairly using the sporting practice of returning possession to a team who kicked the ball OOB to allow an injured player to receive treatment.

While a team is under no obligation to do this, if a player first TELLS the other team to back off because he is going to throw the ball to their keeper, but then tosses it to a teammate who is now in an open position for an easy goal, it seems clear that his actions would be unsporting under the deliberate verbal tactics rule.

In short those are the things that the rule you mention in NFHS soccer is meant to cover. (I'll even look for the comments that accompanied its inclusion in the book and post what I find for you.)

I think that it is highly doubtful that a player closely marking an opponent and yelling "ball, ball, ball..." or "dead, dead, dead..." during an NFHS soccer match could rightfully be considered as violating 12-8-1f(4). They simply are not doing anything deceitful or dangerous.

If you wish to discuss the soccer side of this further just post in the soccer forum here or at nfhs.org. It would be interesting to see what responses you get.

[drinkeii]

My understanding from what I have been taught is that screaming in an opponent's face is considered deliberate verbal tactics. I understand the other situations fall under that (even though I've never heard of the faking a throw to the keeper to waste time - if someone's injured, the refs are supposed to stop the game - players shoulnd't need tactics to kill time to help an injured player get taken care of) as well.

Honestly - I cannot understand how anyone can consider screaming anything in an opponent's face from several inches away to not be unsportsmanlike. Especially when one of the effects they are looking for is to distract or disconcert the opponent, as one coach mentioned earlier. Maybe sports are different from what I think, but I would not consider that appropriate except in anything except a shouting match (or on certain talk shows).

High school sports are, by definition, an extention of the classroom. Sportsmanship is a required part of those sports. I guess maybe some people just consider that kind of behavior appropriate. I don't - and I work in the classroom.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by drinkeii


High school sports are, by definition, an extention of the classroom. Sportsmanship is a required part of those sports. I guess maybe some people just consider that kind of behavior appropriate. I don't - and I work in the classroom.

That's quite a statement on sportsmanship from a coach who's already admitted that he's a whiner and complainer on the bench to the game officials.

Do you let the students in your classroom complain openly about your teaching too? Fair's fair, after all, in the wonderful world of sportsmanship.

Do as I say, not as I do?

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

That's quite a statement on sportsmanship from a coach who's already admitted that he's a whiner and complainer on the bench to the game officials.

Do you let the students in your classroom complain openly about your teaching too? Fair's fair, after all, in the wonderful world of sportsmanship.

Do as I say, not as I do?

I stated that on one occasion, I complained. Normally, I accept the officials without a problem. This past season, there was one game, out of 18, that I felt it necessary to complain due to the complete ineptitude of the one official. One game where I complained is CERTAINLY not making me a whiner and complainer. And I feel I have a unique perspective, being both a coach and an official. When officials don't do their job, someone should complain - maybe not to the official, since many refuse to listen (even as a partner)... I complain mainly when the safety of my kids is at stake. I can think of one soccer game I coached 7 years ago, and one basketball game this year, where that became an issue. And in both cases, I was very close to pulling the team off the court/field to protect their safety, since the officials obviously weren't doing their job in this regard, considering the number of injuries which occurred in both games.

You sound like the other extreme - an official is right, no matter how wrong he is, and because you are an official in a game, you can't possibly, under any circumstances, ever make a bad call or the wrong call. And if you ever, god forbid, do, no one has the right to say anything to you, even if you know you're wrong. That is a very poor attitude.

As for complaining in the classroom, it is accepted - I often ask the students if they have a better suggestion for how to handle certain types of material. I'm honest and up front about some of it (guys, this is boring stuff - i know - lets just get through it). Screaming in the face of another student isn't. Screaming in my face wouldn't be. But I do listen to the students and their opinions on things, including my teaching. Far too many officials feel that they are perfect, and even if they screw up, they shouldn't have any kind of consequences for doing so. That attitude goes a long way toward making officials elitist, which is not a good thing.

No one's perfect. I know this. I expect people to give their best effort, or at least close to it. Everyone has a bad game every now and then. But not being willing to listen to constructive criticism is more of a fault than most officials would make it out to be.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 11:24 AM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by drinkeii

And I feel I have a unique perspective, being both a coach and an official.

I'm willing to bet you that over 90% of all officials have coached sports at some level in their lives. It's not unique at all.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I'm willing to bet you that over 90% of all officials have coached sports at some level in their lives. It's not unique at all.

I'm saying for basketball, currently. Most officials have coached. Most don't continue to officiate and coach at the same time. I know most swimming officials I work with are coaches at the same time. 1-2 soccer officials are out of 50 or so in our chapter. Basketball, almost none of them are currently coaches.

So the unique perspective I'm talking about is working with the officials on one hand, and being a coach "under" them on the other. I think officials often forget what it is like to be a coach, and vice versa. I like to consider both views.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by drinkeii

I'm saying for basketball, currently. Most officials have coached. Most don't continue to officiate and coach at the same time. I know most swimming officials I work with are coaches at the same time. 1-2 soccer officials are out of 50 or so in our chapter. Basketball, almost none of them are currently coaches.

So the unique perspective I'm talking about is working with the officials on one hand, and being a coach "under" them on the other. I think officials often forget what it is like to be a coach, and vice versa. I like to consider both views.

I can't see the difference between an official who *currently* coaches and an official who *formerly* coached. Both sets of people experienced the game from both sides.

Regardless, I would still bet that many, if not the majority of officials you see at your level (middle school roughly?) are actively coaching basketball somewhere. Maybe not 90%, but certainly not 0%, making you non-unique.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I can't see the difference between an official who *currently* coaches and an official who *formerly* coached. Both sets of people experienced the game from both sides.

Regardless, I would still bet that many, if not the majority of officials you see at your level (middle school roughly?) are actively coaching basketball somewhere. Maybe not 90%, but certainly not 0%, making you non-unique.

This is a silly argument. I am not saying I am unique. I am saying it is a unique (or mostly unique) perspective, because many officials completely seem to discount coaches in terms of having any clue about the game or the rules. Some of us do actually know the rules, and have every right to be upset when the officials pick and choose which rules to use and which ones to ignore. Sports should not employ the concept of selective enforcement. There are rules. You can't play a game without rules. The officials are there to keep the players safe, and enforce the rules. (replace enforce with something less "pushy" if you wish - the concept is the same).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by drinkeii
[/B]

You sound like the other extreme - an official is right, no matter how wrong he is, and because you are an official in a game, you can't possibly, under any circumstances, ever make a bad call or the wrong call. And if you ever, god forbid, do, no one has the right to say anything to you, even if you know you're wrong. That is a very poor attitude.

[/B][/QUOTE]Nope, I just have no use for hypocrites that say one thing and then do another.

If you truly believe in sportsmanship, you wouldn't be moaning and pissing publically about the officials.

Btw, what qualifications do you possess to be able to so easily pass judgement on your fellow officials? Do you train officials? Teach mechanics and philosophy? Put on rules clinics?

You're just another whiny coach, David, trying to justify your unsporting behaviour. Please do us a favor and stick to coaching. Officiating isn't for you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by drinkeii

[/B]

I am saying it is a unique (or mostly unique) perspective, because many officials completely seem to discount coaches in terms of having any clue about the game or the rules. Some of us do actually know the rules, and have every right to be upset when the officials pick and choose which rules to use and which ones to ignore.
[/B][/QUOTE]Not true, David. We certainly do not discount coaches who are rules knowledgeable and actually believe and teach sportsmanship. There are several coaches in that category that already post here, and they are always met with respect. You aren't in that category unfortunately. Also, very unfortunately, you aren't unique.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by drinkeii

This is a silly argument.

I agree, but there's a lot of that around here lately.

I am not saying I am unique. I am saying it is a unique (or mostly unique) perspective, because many officials completely seem to discount coaches in terms of having any clue about the game or the rules.

And I'm saying your perspective, while unique to you, is hardly unique to the universe. You can either accept that or not.

(BTW, when Mr Semantics Guy swings by I'm sure he'll want to comment on the validity of qualifying "unique" with "mostly".)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by drinkeii
My understanding from what I have been taught is that screaming in an opponent's face is considered deliberate verbal tactics.

Two options:

1) You were taught incorrectly.
2) You were taught correctly, but have extrapolated that to a common practice that does not meet the original criteria.

At least to the level I've seen it, the act, while annoying, does not meet the criteria for a technical foul.

You appear to think it *should* be a technical foul (or some other violation of the rules). There's a procedure for having your opinion considered by the rules committee. If it's changed, I'll call it.

[SmokeEater]

Getting back to another version of the original question.... Is there any call that should be made if someone yelled or clapped at someone in the act of shooting?

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You sound like the other extreme - an official is right, no matter how wrong he is, and because you are an official in a game, you can't possibly, under any circumstances, ever make a bad call or the wrong call. And if you ever, god forbid, do, no one has the right to say anything to you, even if you know you're wrong. That is a very poor attitude.

[/B]

Nope, I just have no use for hypocrites that say one thing and then do another.

If you truly believe in sportsmanship, you wouldn't be moaning and pissing publically about the officials.

Btw, what qualifications do you possess to be able to so easily pass judgement on your fellow officials? Do you train officials? Teach mechanics and philosophy? Give rules clinics?

You're just another whiny coach, David, trying to justify your unsporting behaviour. Please do us a favor and stick to coaching. Officiating isn't for you. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't see any hypocricy in what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with a coach complaining about my officiating if I'm doing a bad job. I'm not perfect, and I'm willing, unlike some officials, to admit it. It is more important for me to get the call right than to look like I'm perfect when everyone knows I'm not.

As for the supposed lack of sportsmanship in complaining about officiating... If you're referring to my complaints to the officials during those two games in 7 years, I don't think that is an appropriate comparison. I had some horrible officials (the game before the soccer game I blew up at, a girl had her arm broken, with the same officials. The officials aren't directly responsible - however, they lacked the ability to control the game. 4 of my players got hurt during that game - when the officials aren't even able to keep the players reasonably safe, they are not qualified), and reacted to it. If you're referring to my bringing the complaints up here, I asked if there was anything that could be done about it. The general consensus was "No - They're not going to try during the summer, you're going to get partners (and officials, when coaching) that are not officials, and are not qualified for the level they're working during the summer, and you just gotta lump it.". That's fine. I just happen to set a higher standard for myself.

I do train officials, in an intramural league (which, at this point, you're probably saying "so what") - correct mechanics, rules interps, etc - when I hit something I don't know, I ask someone who knows more than I do. Several have gone on to be high school officials in basketball or other sports. These kids work 40-50 games a year each, and receive a half-credit for the class/work.

Actually I got into coaching after being an official for several years. Complaining about one or two games out of several years is not being a whiney coach. I have the same complaints when I get a partner who does things completely outside the rules. Whether I voice them or not, I am, as anyone is, entitled to my opinion. And I don't think it is unreasonable to have officials who are qualified (however you want to define that) for the level of the game which they are handling. I define it as able to keep the players safe and handle the situations which come up during the game correctly.

And your response to stop officiating and just be a coach sounds exactly like the attitude of "Officials are always right, even if they're wrong". I may not be able to do much as a coach, but I am certainly entitled to have a complaint when officials don't do their job. Just as anyone has a right to complain if I, as an official or coach, don't do my job. Or if I don't do my job as a teacher. No one is perfect (except you, I guess).


[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 03:46 PM]

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Two options:

1) You were taught incorrectly.
2) You were taught correctly, but have extrapolated that to a common practice that does not meet the original criteria.

At least to the level I've seen it, the act, while annoying, does not meet the criteria for a technical foul.

You appear to think it *should* be a technical foul (or some other violation of the rules). There's a procedure for having your opinion considered by the rules committee. If it's changed, I'll call it.

So in sports, it is appropriate to scream in another player's face? Simple question. Yes or no?

As I said - I'll accept the general consensus that it's not a foul. I don't like it - I don't agree with it - But it's not my rules - it's the NFHS rules, and I'll follow those. That was why I brought it up here - to see if I was correct or not - I was not.