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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 01, 2005, 10:35am
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Why would an official state they would never call a T? So many of us tend to follow others or make their own interpretation of NFHS rules. One should never admit never when it comes to making a judgment call. If a player was yelling words so loud as to intimidate or abuse or taunt the opponent, I feel you can use the 10-3-7 rule for a T. Remember coaches aren’t as dumb as we may think most are, as they tend to instruct their players to purposely do unsporting tactics to confuse their opponents.

Regarding the twisting of the girl’s uniforms, to me most female players and males are purposely altering their uniforms for attention or just being a wannabe.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 01, 2005, 10:56am
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Quote:
Originally posted by drinkeii
But I've heard from females all the way from little girls up to older ladies that they somehow get overheated if their shoulders are covered, whether in athletics, or general life. Never understood this. Psyiological maybe?
I doubt that - certainly, you're warmer with covered shoulders, but it would be no different between males and females.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 01, 2005, 01:37pm
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speaking of words that get yelled out -- how have you handled this sitch -- period winding down, say 15 seconds left; the kids on the defense's bench start a LOUD countdown ...5, 4, 3... trying to make the offensive player throw up a "Hail Mary" shot, then they get the rebound with 10 seconds still left to play.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 01, 2005, 02:10pm
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As a former coach, this tactic is used to distract a ball-handler that has picked up his/her dribble, and is looking for an outlet to pass the ball. It also relates info to teammates that there is a possibility for a 5-second count, so tighten up your defense. Especially effective without the shot clock.

As a ref, I have no problem with this, because both teams are afforded the opportunity to use this tactic. Either team can do whatever they can 'within the confines of the rules' to accomplish their ultimate goal of winning the game. I don't have a problem with it; it is just chalked up as court noise in my mind and we keep playing.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 01, 2005, 04:04pm
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mdray,

If you are talking about using a false countdown to confuse an opponent, I believe it is covered in the casebook and is penalized by a technical foul. I don't have the book with me, but I am pretty sure it is in there as an unsporting act. If the fans do it, that is one thing, but the bench personnel cannot.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 02, 2005, 07:03am
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What about yelling to disconcert the shooter on a field goal attempt, or clapping hands loudly near the shooter? I seem to recall some officials a couple of years ago saying they would call an unsportsmanlike technical in these instances. Is this all that different, or just different officials responding?

To drinkeii, I think what you're saying is that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to yelling defensive signals, and you consider it unsporting when that line is crossed. The problem is that you are defining that line and your partners may or may not agree with you. The two best answers were to ask your assignor and discuss this in your pre-game.

After you discuss this with your assignor, I would guess he will tell you not to penalize it or give you guidelines. If the latter, make sure you share these guidelines with your partners before the game.

In the long run, your relationship with your partners will prove to be more important than penalizing yelling. The players will adjust to the yelling.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 02, 2005, 07:17am
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Quote:
Originally posted by drothamel
mdray,

If you are talking about using a false countdown to confuse an opponent, I believe it is covered in the casebook and is penalized by a technical foul. I don't have the book with me, but I am pretty sure it is in there as an unsporting act. If the fans do it, that is one thing, but the bench personnel cannot.
Take another look when you get back to your books . . .
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 02, 2005, 09:42pm
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drink,
I'm amazed that you haven't heard this "Ball, ball, ball" thing before. It's been going on in girls ball around here for years. Is it annoying? Yes. Do I like it? Not particularly? Is it illegal? Nope. Am I gonna T up a kid for it? I can't see that happening. It's a part of the game in many places. I've even heard that some younger boys are doing it now -- which makes me groan! Also, IMHO your tourney director's likening this to a yellow card for Unsporting Behavior in soccer is a pretty weak comparison.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 02, 2005, 10:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by refnrev
drink,
I'm amazed that you haven't heard this "Ball, ball, ball" thing before. It's been going on in girls ball around here for years. Is it annoying? Yes. Do I like it? Not particularly? Is it illegal? Nope. Am I gonna T up a kid for it? I can't see that happening. It's a part of the game in many places. I've even heard that some younger boys are doing it now -- which makes me groan! Also, IMHO your tourney director's likening this to a yellow card for Unsporting Behavior in soccer is a pretty weak comparison.
I've heard it off and on for the 6 years I've been reffing. This was the first time that someone told me that it could be considered unsportsmanlike. I made the comparison to soccer myself, because in soccer, there is a specifically enumerated penalty - "Deliberate Verbal Tactics". I don't consider this a weak comparison, even though the two are completely different sports. I would think that in most sports, except maybe football, getting in an opponent's face and screaming at them, regardless of what is said, would be a foul or violation of some sort. Passing it off as communication to teammates is, to me, a rather weak excuse, especially considering a coach above admitted that the purpose was to distract the ball handler and make them throw a bad pass, along with informing their teammates that they had picked up their dribble. It seems to fall under gamesmanship to me - practices in sports which are technically not illegal, but attempt to get around the rules in an unfair or unsportsmanlike manner.

But, as I said above, the rules don't seem to support my feeling that this isn't part of the game. Except in the most extreme cases, I doubt I'd even warn someone about this being a problem, since I don't feel I have the support of the rules or of the officiating community at large for a call such as a T for this.

Then again, when the rules required excessive swinging of the elbows without contact to be a T, refs in general refused to call it, and the rules changed back to making it a violation. (This was in the past 2-3 years of rules changes, I believe)

Again, thanks for the opinions.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 03, 2005, 09:27am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker

Here's another "verbal tactics" sportsmanship question. Is it illegal for the opponent to yell, "Shoot!" at the ball-handler? It seems pretty unsportsmanlike to me, but I've never seen anyone call it. I'm not talking about the fans, I'm talking about the players on the floor, or sometimes the bench. How do others handle this?
Juulie,
I'd say you could make a case, depending on how it's done, that this is taunting. "Shoot it. Come on, shoot it."
Is that what you're talking about?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 03, 2005, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by drothamel
mdray,

If you are talking about using a false countdown to confuse an opponent, I believe it is covered in the casebook and is penalized by a technical foul. I don't have the book with me, but I am pretty sure it is in there as an unsporting act. If the fans do it, that is one thing, but the bench personnel cannot.
Take another look when you get back to your books . . .
I don't remember ever reading this in any casebook; I do agree it is unsporting; I've issued a warning to the coach whenever I've heard it and that has worked. But whenever I've heard it, it's been at the end of the first half, so a warning seemed appropriate. However, if the only time a bench did it was at the end of a close game, a T may be the right call.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 03, 2005, 04:43pm
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As a High School and grammer school coach I coach want my players to be vocal. I want them to scream 'Ball!' 'Dead!' and other things when playing defense. If someone calls a T for this during one of our games, be prepared to T me up at least once maybe twice, not to mention a letter to your assinger.

Seriously guys, keep your ears closed and your eyes open and just call the game!
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 03, 2005, 07:18pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by WindyCityRef
As a High School and grammer school coach I coach want my players to be vocal. I want them to scream 'Ball!' 'Dead!' and other things when playing defense. If someone calls a T for this during one of our games, be prepared to T me up at least once maybe twice, not to mention a letter to your assinger.

Seriously guys, keep your ears closed and your eyes open and just call the game!
Coach WindyCityRef, I understand what you say and I can assure you that +99.9% of us are not calling a T or even saying anything to a kid no matter how many times they say ballballballball deaddeaddeaddead. However, just because a coach teaches something doesn't always mean it's right. I've had kids pourposly run oob on an inbounds play and when I had the first oppotunity to let them know that there's a rule against it and it was even a POE last year, they usually tell me that how their coach tells them to do it.
I understand what you're saying, do you understand what I'm saying?

BTW, any HS coach who threatens a letter to my assignor is going to get a chance to start their letter early and he'll also have to explain my report to the state.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 03, 2005, 11:43pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snaqwells
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker

Here's another "verbal tactics" sportsmanship question. Is it illegal for the opponent to yell, "Shoot!" at the ball-handler? It seems pretty unsportsmanlike to me, but I've never seen anyone call it. I'm not talking about the fans, I'm talking about the players on the floor, or sometimes the bench. How do others handle this?
Juulie,
I'd say you could make a case, depending on how it's done, that this is taunting. "Shoot it. Come on, shoot it."
Is that what you're talking about?
Holy Cow, Adam, you can't just sneak in here and ask an innocent question like you've been around all this time. Where have you been, and how are you? Details, we want details!!

And yes, that's what I'm talking about, and yes it does border on taunting, I think, especially when it's done toward someone who doesn't shoot well, or who's havning trouble keeping control of the ball.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 06, 2005, 03:17am
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Originally posted by WindyCityRef
... grammer school coach ...
A classic!!!!
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