confused by the traveling rule

[mick]

Originally posted by PGCougar

I'd be interested in knowing how you can simultaneously jump off one foot and land with both feet at the same time...

PGCougar,
WindyCityRef did not write that.

WindyCityRef did write this:
"...takes one last dribble and simultaneously jumps off one foot...."

mick

[WindyCityRef]

Originally posted by mick

Nope.
Cannot pivot.
mick

Ok, why not? I've read and re-read the rule and I cannot see where it says you cannot.

Let's say you are dribbling with your right hand and as you dribble the ball one last time and as the ball is in the air, you jump off your left foot. Now both feet are in the air and the ball is in both hands. You land on both feet at the same time. From what I can read in the rules, if both feet land at the same time, either foot can be your pivot.

What am I reading wrong?

[mick]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef

Ok, why not? I've read and re-read the rule and I cannot see where it says you cannot.

Let's say you are dribbling with your right hand and as you dribble the ball one last time and as the ball is in the air, you jump off your left foot. Now both feet are in the air and the ball is in both hands. You land on both feet at the same time. From what I can read in the rules, if both feet land at the same time, either foot can be your pivot.

What am I reading wrong?

We see different plays, that's all.
Readin' and imaginin' don't always match.
Pick your play.

43-2-a(1)

43-2-b(2)
mick

[TigerBball]

It all comes down to did the player step, then end the dribble, or end dribble and then step.

If you step, end your dribble, then land on 2, you can pivot. Thus allowing you to step again, lift the pivot, and pass or shoot.

If you end your dribble, step, then land on two feet simultaneously, you have no pivot, thus (and this is where I am unsure) you can not step again. If either foot lifts at this point, you have to pass or shoot, no step and lifting of the pivot allowed (that woudl be the pivot that you never had).

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ysong
What I want to know:

Does 4-43-2-a(2) describe a "step" only, or does it describe an action that may be a "step or a "jump"?

It depends on what you mean by "step" and "jump."

This rule only means what it says -- one foot followed by the other. At the time the "other" foot lands, the "first" foot might still be on the ground (I'm guessing this is your "step") or might now be in the air (I'm guessing this is your "jump").

Either way, the "first" foot is still the pivot foot, and all the pivot foot restrictions apply.

[WindyCityRef]

Originally posted by TigerBball
It all comes down to did the player step, then end the dribble, or end dribble and then step.

If you step, end your dribble, then land on 2, you can pivot. Thus allowing you to step again, lift the pivot, and pass or shoot.

If you end your dribble, step, then land on two feet simultaneously, you have no pivot, thus (and this is where I am unsure) you can not step again. If either foot lifts at this point, you have to pass or shoot, no step and lifting of the pivot allowed (that woudl be the pivot that you never had).

Right, this is the way I've interpreted it also.

[SmokeEater]

Originally posted by TigerBball
It all comes down to did the player step, then end the dribble, or end dribble and then step.

If you step, end your dribble, then land on 2, you can pivot. Thus allowing you to step again, lift the pivot, and pass or shoot.

If you end your dribble, step, then land on two feet simultaneously, you have no pivot, thus (and this is where I am unsure) you can not step again. If either foot lifts at this point, you have to pass or shoot, no step and lifting of the pivot allowed (that woudl be the pivot that you never had).

So far for me this is the best of the explanations the way I interpret the rules.

[ysong]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

It depends on what you mean by "step" and "jump."

This rule only means what it says -- one foot followed by the other. At the time the "other" foot lands, the "first" foot might still be on the ground (I'm guessing this is your "step") or might now be in the air (I'm guessing this is your "jump").

Either way, the "first" foot is still the pivot foot, and all the pivot foot restrictions apply.

Thanks, Bob.

So you believe 4-43-2-a(2) can be either a "jump" or a "step".

But do you feel this rule set seems very awkward if 4-43-2-a(2) allows a "jump"? because:

1. the rule set is supposed to list exhaustively all the possible foot(or feet) movements that are allowed (while a player is holding the ball). in other word, any foot(feet) movements that are not listed should be considered illegal and any movement that is allowed by one rule should not contradict other applicable rules.

2. the rule explicitly says that the pivot foot may only be lifted AFTER the pivot foot is established. (if there is no pivot foot to be allowed, then foot/feet can be lifted at anytime.)

so it makes me think it is illegal for the will-be pivot foot to be lifted before it is established as the pivot foot. this move (presumably illegal) happens when a player "jumps" in 4-43-2-a(2) scenario.

You will be greatly appreciated if you point out which part of my thought does not make sense?

Thanks.

[SeanFitzRef]

Ysong,

Player A1 driving to basket, jumps off left foot (Step 1) and lands on a jump stop with both feet (step 2). Can't pivot, because this is the second step. Jump to pass or shoot and it is legal. If A1 jumps from this point it is legal as long as he/she doesn't come down with ball. Can't pivot because both feet landed on the jumpstop so true pivot no longer exists.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ysong
You will be greatly appreciated if you point out which part of my thought does not make sense?

Thanks.

The part where the pivot foot can't be lifted before the pivot foot is established.

Plus, I think you're trying to be too strict in parsing the wording.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ysong

so it makes me think it is illegal for the will-be pivot foot to be lifted before it is established as the pivot foot.

If a foot isn't allowed to be lifted before it's established as the pivot foot, no one can move anywhere when they have the ball! As long as the player is dribbling, either foot can move anywhere. Neither foot is the pivot foot, but that doesn't matter because a pivot foot isn't necessary. If a player steps OR jumps (doesn't matter which) and then ends the dribble, the next foot to hit is the pivot foot. What either foot did before that is irrelevant. Now that a pivot foot is established, there are rules about what can happen. But before that pivot foot touches down, it doesn't matter what it does, because pivot foot rules don't matter until the dribble is ended.

[WindyCityRef]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

The part where the pivot foot can't be lifted before the pivot foot is established.

Plus, I think you're trying to be too strict in parsing the wording.

Is there a definition of 'when the dribble is ended' in the rules? I think that is a sticky point in some of these explanations.

[WindyCityRef]

Ok, I'm going to answer my own question (should have looked it up before posting last time)

Rule 4, Sec 15, Art 4
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

So, if both feet are in the air before the player 'ends' his/her dribble, then lands after grasping the ball with two hands, he/she can pivot with either foot. Right?

Also, I believe I read once before that the NCAA Women's rule explains this better.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by ysong

Thanks, TigerBball.

I get your point. but I am not sure if I am fully convinced by this analogy.

In your example, the rule 43-4-a describes it as allowed move. Further more, this move does not contradict any other rules.

In my example, first, there are no explicit rule describes this "jump" as allowed move. second, if it is implied that this "jump" is allowed, then the logic of this rule set seems very twisted.

But if 43-2-a(2) only describe a "step", the logic of related rules are more consistent.

Thanks.

43-2-a2 describes a single landing...one foot followed by the other. It doesn't describe two landings: landing, jumping and landing again. The only time two landings are allowed is when the player, in the air, lands on one and jumps from that one and then lands simultaneously on both.

[ysong]

Originally posted by rainmaker

If a foot isn't allowed to be lifted before it's established as the pivot foot, no one can move anywhere when they have the ball! As long as the player is dribbling, either foot can move anywhere. Neither foot is the pivot foot, but that doesn't matter because a pivot foot isn't necessary. If a player steps OR jumps (doesn't matter which) and then ends the dribble, the next foot to hit is the pivot foot. What either foot did before that is irrelevant. Now that a pivot foot is established, there are rules about what can happen. But before that pivot foot touches down, it doesn't matter what it does, because pivot foot rules don't matter until the dribble is ended.

Thanks, rainmaker. You are absolutely right, travel rule does not apply when no dribbling is going on. (I know this much at least. )

But in the context of my question, the player is not dribbling. He is holding the ball (i.e, after a player catches the ball. To be more specific, he catches the ball when he is in mid air).

As Bob points out, my problem is to claim pivot foot can not be lifted before it becomes a pivot foot. The only reason I get this "unique" idea is that this move is not explicitly listed as allowed move thus I deem it is illegal.

(It is right, I may be too strict into the wording. The harder I try to get myself out of a confusion, the deeper I am in it.)

My confusion originates from the fact that most people believe 43-2-a(2) can also be a "jump" while for me it "obviously" sounds like a "step":

when the rule says "the player lands" "On one foot followed by the other", I can only picture one action (for there is only one verb), player "lands", I can not picture a "jump" between two landings, one by each foot.

Based on the style of the rule's wording, one would think it would have to be worded like "(the player lands) On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and land on the other foot", if the rule 43-2-a(2) allows this jump. it may even have to list this jump as 43-2-a(4), would you think?

I also wonder how many refs also believe 43-2-a(2) is a "step" rather than a "jump", 1%? 50%? 75%?

I think right now I have to rely on "faith" on this one, like, "It can also be a jump. Period. That is how I understand it or what I have been told anyway".

Thanks for your help.