confused by the traveling rule

[ysong]

Disclaimer:

I only want more help to understand the travel rule. It is not a debate because I've not established any of my own idea yet. (Actually, my established ideas were totally destroyed recently.) The reason why I ask questions and why I may question the answers I am given is NOT to argue or debate or to disrespect, instead, it is to show where my confusions are so I can get further well-focused help.

First, the NFHS traveling rule 4-43:

ART. 2 . . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
...

ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
...



What I want to know:

Does 4-43-2-a(2) describe a "step" only, or does it describe an action that may be a "step or a "jump"?


My confusions:

if the action in 43-2-a(2) may be a "jump", the rule is self-contradictory, when either of the following assumptions is true.

assumption A : in this jump, at the moment the first foot touches floor, the first foot becomes the pivot foot.

assumption B : in this jump, the first foot does not become the pivot foot until the second foot touches floor.

My rationales:

With Assumption A, foot 1 touches floor and becomes the pivot foot instaneously, but when player jumps off it, his foot 2 is not allowed to come down until ball is gone. According to 43-3(b), after "establishing a pivot foot", if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Therefore, with assumption A, rule 43-3(b) forbids 43-2-a(2) to be a "jump".

With Assumption B, foot 1 touches floor first but no pivot foot yet. before "establishing a pivot foot" or "coming to a stop", foot 1 is lifted. when foot 2 down, foot 1 is established as the pivot foot. But this foot (foot 1) is lifted BEFORE player "coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot", not AFTER. this jump is not within prescribed limit, thus illegal.

therefore, with assumption B, rule 43-3(a) does not accept 43-2-a(2) to be a "jump", and no other rules accept this particular jump either.


My question:
do you think my claim that "the rule is self-contradictory when 43-2-a(2)allows a jump" makes sense? If not, where do I do wrong?

Thanks.










[Edited by ysong on May 18th, 2005 at 02:51 PM]

[Jimgolf]

"What I want to know:

Does 4-43-2-a(2) describe a "step" only, or does it describe an action that may be a "step or a "jump""

This just says that if you stop 1-2, then 1 is the pivot foot. If you stop 1, then 2-3, there is no pivot foot.

Don't try to read more into it.

[ysong]

Originally posted by Jimgolf

This just says that if you stop 1-2, then 1 is the pivot foot. If you stop 1, then 2-3, there is no pivot foot.

Don't try to read more into it.

Thanks for your answer. But I am afraid I do not understand the underlined part.

Would you make it clear for me? what is "2-3"?

Thanks.

[mick]

Originally posted by Jimgolf

This just says that if you stop 1-2, then 1 is the pivot foot. If you stop 1, then 2-3, there is no pivot foot.

Don't try to read more into it.

Jim,
I applaud your "spirit and intent".
mick

[TigerBball]

OK, in the case of the jumpstop and a player steps with one foot and simultaneously lands on two, the rule says neither is a pivot. So I am assuming that you can not then step and lift a foot to shoot or pass as described because you can not lift a pivot foot that you never had. Am I understanding this correctly.

[deecee]

after a jump stop you have no pivot rights -- if any foot is lifted the ball better leave the players hand before it comes back down --

but a travel from a jump stop is partially subjective as well -- as long as both feet come down close enough and not necessarily at the same time but one....two with about a fraction of a second difference and it didnt give player with an advantage i pass on it.

one thing i am working on this off season -- besides trying to coach instead of ref -- is to not call anything that doesn't effect the game and let the play take care of itself...in fact i had an argument with another dip**** adult yesterday regarding the 3 second rule -- this is one of the hardest rules/infractions to explain to people as apparently when it comes to the 3 second rule everyone was raised in a military household -- "well if he were in there for 3 seconds no matter what its a violation and you should call it" -- to which i reply "everytime you speed on the freeway you should pull over to the nearest police officer and ask him to write you a ticket".

They dont like that one but i get a kick out of it. which reminds me of another joke

-----

A police officer is waiting along a road when a kid speeds by him. The officer proceeds to pull the kid over and walks over to the kids car.

officer: Son, I've been waiting for you here all day, you just made my day.

kid: Well I got here as fast as I could.

The officer after wiping the tears of laughter out of his eyes let the kid off with a warning.

[mick]

Originally posted by TigerBball
OK, in the case of the jumpstop and a player steps with one foot and simultaneously lands on two, the rule says neither is a pivot. So I am assuming that you can not then step and lift a foot to shoot or pass as described because you can not lift a pivot foot that you never had. Am I understanding this correctly.

Nope.
Since neither foot is a pivot, one or both feet may be raised, but neither may be returned.

[PGCougar]

Originally posted by TigerBball
OK, in the case of the jumpstop and a player steps with one foot and simultaneously lands on two, the rule says neither is a pivot. So I am assuming that you can not then step and lift a foot to shoot or pass as described because you can not lift a pivot foot that you never had. Am I understanding this correctly.

It looks like 4-43-3-b (... If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal) seems to imply that you can jump off of both feet to pass or shoot. Is this correct?

[mick]

Originally posted by deecee
after a jump stop you have no pivot rights -- if any foot is lifted the ball better leave the players hand before it comes back down --

but a travel from a jump stop is partially subjective as well -- as long as both feet come down close enough and not necessarily at the same time but one....two with about a fraction of a second difference and it didnt give player with an advantage i pass on it.

one thing i am working on this off season -- besides trying to coach instead of ref ...

deecee,
Are you using the coach's book now?
mick

[deecee]

i think that the coaches rulebook explains it easier than the runaround in our manuals.

[ysong]

Originally posted by TigerBball
OK, in the case of the jumpstop and a player steps with one foot and simultaneously lands on two, the rule says neither is a pivot. So I am assuming that you can not then step and lift a foot to shoot or pass as described because you can not lift a pivot foot that you never had. Am I understanding this correctly.

Thanks, TigerBball.

I get your point. but I am not sure if I am fully convinced by this analogy.

In your example, the rule 43-4-a describes it as allowed move. Further more, this move does not contradict any other rules.

In my example, first, there are no explicit rule describes this "jump" as allowed move. second, if it is implied that this "jump" is allowed, then the logic of this rule set seems very twisted.

But if 43-2-a(2) only describe a "step", the logic of related rules are more consistent.

Thanks.

[WindyCityRef]

Ummmm, how about this:

Player with ball is dribbling, takes one last dribble and simultaneously jumps off one foot and lands on both feet at the same time. He/She can pivot?

I've always believed they can.

[ysong]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
Ummmm, how about this:

Player with ball is dribbling, takes one last dribble and simultaneously jumps off one foot and lands on both feet at the same time. He/She can pivot?

I've always believed they can.

does the player pick up the dribble before the player is in the air, or after?

(assuming it can not be exactly "simultaneously".)

[mick]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
Ummmm, how about this:

Player with ball is dribbling, takes one last dribble and simultaneously jumps off one foot and lands on both feet at the same time. He/She can pivot?

I've always believed they can.

Nope.
Cannot pivot.
mick

[PGCougar]

Originally posted by WindyCityRef
... simultaneously jumps off one foot and lands on both feet at the same time.

I'd be interested in knowing how you can simultaneously jump off one foot and land with both feet at the same time...