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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 09:43am
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If the NFHS says something should be penalized because whatever situation happened, why do we choose to enforce our own set of rules? i.e. flops, Rule 10.5, etc.
I am as guilty of this as anyone and our H.S. association is really bad at enforcing certain rules and not enforcing others.
Is it because our interpretations are so different from official to official?
Is it because we want everything to go "smoothly", with no waves in the water?
Is it more about game management styles?
Why do we choose to make some rules more important than others?
Just curious
AAR
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 10:47am
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I think that there are a lot of reasons for what you describe. To me, the biggest reason for this is that the rule book and the case book are very sterile when it comes to the actual plays. The book sort of assumes that things happen in a certain way all of the time. Of course, this is a necessary function of a rule book, it obviously can't take into account every possible situation. But I think that is one of the reasons that officials do things differently from one another at times. Plus, basketball is a very personal game, especially with regard to the officials. We interact a great deal with coaches and players, just based on our proximity to the action. THis kind of interaction leads to a need for game management that sometimes requires a different tack than what the rule book may suggest.

I do feel your frustration. I have posted this once before, but when I was in Delaware, the coaches' box was ironclad, and strictly enforced. Now that I am back in VA, it isn't enforced anywhere near as strictly. Also, the style of play and the level of play is different from area to area, and this also leads to different interpretations of the rules and their enforcement.

Just some thoughts, but a very interesting topic for discussion.

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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 10:50am
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Its for all the reasons you listed. There is something to be said for the harmony of a game. Some calls need to fit the game. We have a great game, and an official makes a call that doesn't fit. Coaches, players, fans, and even your partners loose focus after the call. Then things start to go bad. Players change the way they have been playing, the coach is now officiating, and the officials now are having to focus on all kinds of stuff.
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 11:01am
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The Flop

Allow me to be specific here. In my district's rules and mechanics meeting before the year started, the chief rules interpreter and evaluator specifically stated that it is not our job to enforce the rules that we deem necessary to be enforced. The book is there for a reason, make the call. This was specifically being addressed in regards to the Flop POE. Now, that being said, I had about 5 or 6 instances where I could have whacked a kid for a flop, but passed on it. Further, I didn't see it called once all year, nor hear of anyone calling it.

Two questions for the crowd here then. 1) Did anyone call the Flop T this year/hear of anyone calling the Flop T, and what were the consequences (i.e. coach's/crowd's reaction, etc.). 2) If you are given the same instruction by the district interpreter, what is your reaction once you get on the court?
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 11:05am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Almost Always Right
If the NFHS says something should be penalized because whatever situation happened, why do we choose to enforce our own set of rules? i.e. flops, Rule 10.5, etc.
I am as guilty of this as anyone and our H.S. association is really bad at enforcing certain rules and not enforcing others.
Is it because our interpretations are so different from official to official?
Is it because we want everything to go "smoothly", with no waves in the water?
Is it more about game management styles?
Why do we choose to make some rules more important than others?
Just curious
AAR
While knowledge of the rules is important what separates the average official from the great official is judgement and a feel for how this particular game should be called and is consistent from start to finish. The great official understands the notion of "the spirit of the rule" and the concept of advantage Vs. disadvantage. The great official has superior people skills and excellent mechanics. If you watch experienced vs. new officials you will see differences in game management. I believe that is what you're observing.
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 11:18am
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When people talk about the flow of the game, I think they're referring to the spirit and intent of the rules.
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 11:37am
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I coach grammer school and high school girls, and ref:

First 8th grade girls playoff game day after the annual rules interpretation meeting for all the high school refs in the area, one guy T's up one of my players for running out of bounds along the baseline. I saw a ton of players run out of bounds during the rest of the high school season but I never saw another T administered for it.
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by WindyCityRef
I coach grammer school and high school girls, and ref:

First 8th grade girls playoff game day after the annual rules interpretation meeting for all the high school refs in the area, one guy T's up one of my players for running out of bounds along the baseline. I saw a ton of players run out of bounds during the rest of the high school season but I never saw another T administered for it.
This season I did numerous games (mostly high school) both boys and girls with different partners with various degrees of experience. This Tee was never called in any of my games nor am I aware of any officials that called it this season. I thought about calling it one time when a player ran out of bounds under the basket along the end line to the other side of the court. Since it had no effect on the play (never got the ball, set a pick etc.) I passed on it. Yet I know there are officials out there that will call it whenever they see it happen. Incidently what I described above rarely happens at least in the games that I have worked.
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 12:54pm
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Why do strike zones vary sooooooo much?


Ooops, this should be for the baseball board, lol.. But, seems appropriate for the question
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 01:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Almost Always Right
If the NFHS says something should be penalized because whatever situation happened, why do we choose to enforce our own set of rules? i.e. flops, Rule 10.5, etc.
I am as guilty of this as anyone and our H.S. association is really bad at enforcing certain rules and not enforcing others.
Is it because our interpretations are so different from official to official?
Is it because we want everything to go "smoothly", with no waves in the water?
Is it more about game management styles?
Why do we choose to make some rules more important than others?
Just curious
AAR
Maybe it's for the same reason cops sometimes give tickets and sometimes give warnings for the same offense.
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 01:30pm
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This year I called my first T for running out of bounds. I also called my last. I believe the call was correct by rule. But I also agree with the coach who pointed out that the penalty is too harsh. It is a potentially 6 point game altering call (take away a possession, give two shots and the ball) for relatively a minor infraction.

I also only saw one other official call it all year. Where does that leave me as an official? If everybody were enforcing it, everybody would adjust. But everybody is not enforcing it, so I'm am now that hard-*** guy who makes clueless game-changing calls for minor infractions. No thank you.

So add these two items to the list:
* Sometimes the penalty is way to harsh for the infraction
* There is danger in being the only guy who calls something

In regards to the first point, look at what happened with the swinging elbows thing. The rules committee put in a rule making it a T and wanted it enforced. We all thought it was too harsh of a penalty and didn't call it. They reconsidered, made it a violation, and it's called a lot more often now. By our refusal to enforce the draconian penalty, we've had a mitigating influence on the game as it has evolved.
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Almost Always Right

Is it because we want everything to go "smoothly", with no waves in the water?
For a high school game this is the biggest culprit IMO. I can only talk about what I've experienced. Sure game management is important but there are guys doing Varsity basketball that wouldn't know game management if it walked up and said "Hello, is it me you're looking for?" Some other problems IMO:

Saying your are going to do something and going out and NOT doing it
Not knowing how to apply the rules (counting the basket when someone slaps the backboard)
Not having courage
Wanting to be too PC
Not knowing primaries and ball watching
Worrying about the wrong things (I probably didn't toss the ball the last month of the season and didn't care)

I don't know, I don't really have much to say about this!
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 01:43pm
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Talking . . .and another thing

Do any of you ever work with partner(s) that agree to something in a pre-game and then go out and do whatever they want? I hate that.
T-Saw you are absolutely right, that is a huge culprit.
How do you combat that? I have just tried to mention it as soon as possible(time-out, quarters, afterwards) and go from there.
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Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 03:39pm
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Sometimes I think we rationalize way too much and because of this the game has become rougher. Someone post here a few months back that he saw a film of a game from the 60s, or was it the 50s, and he was amazed at the difference in play. Many of the things we rationalize away like a short period of time hand check, forearm in the back, bump, hack and play through just did not happen in the game. If I remember correctly he said that the game was much cleaner.

We have rules because someone wants them. Coaches and ADs I believe are part of it of the decision making. I can’t see a bunch of officials sitting around making up rules to make our lives harder. Heck, just look at Chapter 1 and the uniform rules in chapter 3.

As for the flop – Since it was a POE this year I saw only one and it was not in a game I was doing but one in which I was timing and it was called. Now that said; since the HS season is over I have been giving more time to my old rec league. In one night I called one flop T in each of the 2 games I did. Why, because it is not basketball. What really ticked me off was the second kid got up with this look one his face like what the heck was I doing and then said, “But I see it in high school games all the time.” I just let that ride.

BTW, if anyone is interested here is a link to the minutes of the meeting that set the 2004-05 rules.

http://www.cifccs.org/playoffs/Playi...%20minutes.pdf
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