2 man pay vs 3 man pay

[bellyache]

would like to know the norm for how most schools handle the pay from 2 vs 3 man crews. for example if a 2 man would get $60 apiece, but in a big rival game home management decides to use 3 man, would each get $60 for total of $180, or $40 apiece dividing the $120 purse

[tjones1]

Welcome to the forum bellyache. Around here it usually stays about the same. Girls JV/V is going to pay $60-70 wheather it's two or three man (some even pay $50--depending on the school). Same goes for Boys JV/V, some schools in this area hire a three man for some JV games and a seperate crew for the V game. JV, the average is probably around $40-45, 2 or 3 man. If you work the V game, then you are looking at $50-60, 2 or 3 man.

[bellyache]

the reason i ask some schools here are starting to split the normal purse three ways. this really makes it not worth working v games since most we travel a min of 1 and half hours or more away. we always have seperate crews for jv. we can work jv games close to home and make 40 to 50 or travel, get home later and make 40 to 50. easy math huh!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bellyache
the reason i ask some schools here are starting to split the normal purse three ways. this really makes it not worth working v games since most we travel a min of 1 and half hours or more away. we always have seperate crews for jv. we can work jv games close to home and make 40 to 50 or travel, get home later and make 40 to 50. easy math huh!

Is that why you're in it, for the money?

I want the big game. I want the highest level of play. I want the best players. I want the best atmosphere. I want the intensity.

If you don't, you can probably work JV games, close to home, the rest of your career. Just tell your assignor.

Now, I'm not trying to be ugly or cynical but that's what you're sounding like. If your association is truly interested in addressing the situation, then have the assignor tell the schools what the game fee will be for 3 man. Don't let them tell you. "If you want 3 man, it's $XX per official. Otherwise, we send 2 officials."

However, you should expect some pay decrease for 3 man versus 2. If 2 get $60 each, then it's not unfair to expect $50 each for 3 man.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 30th, 2005 at 07:35 PM]

[tjones1]

Yeah around here they just pay for the extra official. Makes it easier and it's fair too. I've actually heard of what you are talking about. Usually what happens around here, if the school only hires two officials but it's a big game. Then, usually the crew who's on it will bring a third and split their checks to the third person.

[bellyache]

hey im not saying that im it to be rich but i certainly wouldn't travel 3 hours each way and bring home $40. i enjoy the big games and the point i am making is the kids will suffer from this practice because the better officials are smart enough to know that 3 hours each way and $40 dollars is not fair and will stop taking these big games.and yes somewhere in the middle would be more fare than a 3-way split

[BktBallRef]

So you'll drive 3 hours each way for $60, but not $40?

[zebraman]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Is that why you're in it, for the money?

I want the big game. I want the highest level of play. I want the best players. I want the best atmosphere. I want the intensity.

If you don't, you can probably work JV games, close to home, the rest of your career. Just tell your assignor.

Now, I'm not trying to be ugly or cynical but that's what you're sounding like. If your association is truly interested in addressing the situation, then have the assignor tell the schools what the game fee will be for 3 man. Don't let them tell you. "If you want 3 man, it's $XX per official. Otherwise, we send 2 officials."

However, you should expect some pay decrease for 3 man versus 2. If 2 get $60 each, then it's not unfair to expect $50 each for 3 man.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 30th, 2005 at 07:35 PM]

The only problem with your suggestion Tony is that doesn't work that way around here. In Washington State, the game fees are set at the STATE level. We're on a 3-year trial system and the 3-person fee is basically 2/3rd the pay of a 2-person fee for our officials. Since we are already one of the lowest paid states around, I don't know of a single official in WA that is not irritated and rightly so. The officials I know love doing 3-person but they thought the schools should have had to shoulder a little of the burden too. (so that we were paid a little less for 3-person, but not 1/3rd less). Very few officials in our state are "in it for the money" because it doesn't make financial sense for anyone to do it. You truly have to love the game to want to spend your entire evening at a school (evaluating the JV game etc.) for $33.00 a night, but we do it. However, at some point the pay becomes so low that it's almost insulting. I want the big game. I want the highest level of play. I want the best players. I want the best atmosphere. I want the intensity. And I want a little respect too. There is a balance in there somewhere and right now Washington State officials are being asked to shoulder too much of it. We're doing it and for all the right reasons, but that doesn't mean that we think that it's all wonderful and rosy.

Z

[IowaMike]

I wouldn't do this for free. Yes, I enjoy officiating but I don't think anyone here is getting rich off of it and I don't expect to either. I do expect to be compensated for my effort and at some point the pay can be so low that it isn't worth my time. Some guys around here are willing to drive 2 hours each way to work a varsity game, which is fine. I'm not willing to do that for $60-$70. I do drive up to 45-60 minutes or so one way for a varsity game. Given the option of taking a 1/3 pay cut to work 3 person or continuing to work 2 person for the full fee, I would work 2 person every time. If schools don't want to pay the additional cost of an extra official, don't hire one. I guess each person has their own limits on travel and pay. I would also guess that those that say they don't do it for the money still cash the checks that they receive for each game.

[bigzilla]

In Okla, there is no set fee, and the individual schools pay different amounts, although our local association encourages us to not work for less than a certain amount to avoid "undercutters". Only the largest classes use 3 man crews, and they get paid less.

If I go work a 2 man game, I will do the girls varsity and the boys varsity, and will make between $85 and $95 total. Same for the partner.

If you go work a 3 man, you do the girls and the boys, and will make about $70 per official.

Jr. Hi games are usually $25 per game, and you do either 3 boys or 3 girls games.

We don't have "assignors" in our area. I go call a game, and the coach or AD says, are you booked for next year? We break out the calendars, take a game or two for next year, and go on, or they call during the season and book you for next season. A few schools will ask one ref to take care of bringing in their officials for the entire season, but very rarely, and usually only jr hi.

The state association makes assignments for playoff games, including the state championship games, all of which pay less than most regular season games.

[OverAndBack]

The more I read about how some other states "do it," the more I feel fortunate to be in the state I'm in. And I never would have thought that was possible, given that most things about this state (just in general) are so bass-ackward.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by OverAndBack
The more I read about how some other states "do it," the more I feel fortunate to be in the state I'm in. And I never would have thought that was possible, given that most things about this state (just in general) are so bass-ackward.

I agree, maybe it isn't perfect here, but it sure doesn't sound as bad as some other places.
Our difference from 2 man to 3 man is only 4 bucks. ($58/$54)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by zebraman
The only problem with your suggestion Tony is that doesn't work that way around here. In Washington State, the game fees are set at the STATE level. We're on a 3-year trial system and the 3-person fee is basically 2/3rd the pay of a 2-person fee for our officials. Since we are already one of the lowest paid states around, I don't know of a single official in WA that is not irritated and rightly so. The officials I know love doing 3-person but they thought the schools should have had to shoulder a little of the burden too. (so that we were paid a little less for 3-person, but not 1/3rd less). Very few officials in our state are "in it for the money" because it doesn't make financial sense for anyone to do it. You truly have to love the game to want to spend your entire evening at a school (evaluating the JV game etc.) for $33.00 a night, but we do it. However, at some point the pay becomes so low that it's almost insulting. I want the big game. I want the highest level of play. I want the best players. I want the best atmosphere. I want the intensity. And I want a little respect too. There is a balance in there somewhere and right now Washington State officials are being asked to shoulder too much of it. We're doing it and for all the right reasons, but that doesn't mean that we think that it's all wonderful and rosy.

Z

That's a totally differtent situation, Z. He said, "...some schools here are starting to split the normal purse three ways..." Some schools is not the state association. I was addressing his post, not all situations everywhere.

Sounds to me like someone in Washington should have grown some balls before this was ever agreed upon.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
That's a totally differtent situation, Z. He said, "...some schools here are starting to split the normal purse three ways..." Some schools is not the state association. I was addressing his post, not all situations everywhere.


Understood.


Sounds to me like someone in Washington should have grown some balls before this was ever agreed upon.


You'd have to understand the dynamics of how Washington State works to realize how this was crammed down our throats (I'm not going to get into the organizational structure of the WIAA and WOA and all that). Basically, we voted down this proposal three years ago (officials were willing for some reduction in pay to do 3-person, but not 1/3rd less). The schools said, "we're happy with 2-person and we don't want 3-person if it costs us one penny more."

The WIAA/WOA waited 3 years and then crammed what we rejected (3-person using the 2-person rate split 3 ways) down our throats. Long story.... basically, officials aren't happy about the fees or the process, but 3-person is good for the game and for the athletes and since 90% of the officials ref for the "right reasons," we are all just biting our tongues (for the most part) for 3 years. There is no process for officials to challenge a WOA/WIAA decision. After the 3-year trial period, rates will go up if the schools decide to adopt 3-person. If not, it's back to 2-person for regular season and 3-person for district and state.

Z

[Boiler14]

What are the "right reasons"?

I don't want to come off as a jerk since you can tell by my posts that I haven't been around the forum. However, as a licensed official for 17 years, I do have the experience.

There are refs who work the games for money. As stated, those who don't do it for the money seem to take the money anyway.

Some do it to stay close to the game.

Some do it for a challenge.

Some do it because it is fun.

Some will say they do it for the kids. This one gets me because it goes back to the paid idea. There are some who do games for free at clubs and such. They must be doing it for the kids because my time to myself and my family ranks much higher than officiating for free.

I've read enough in this forum to realize a few of you are going to rip me apart for posting something like this, but I truly get tired of hearing guys say they do it for the kids. They might like to be around them and that may be a better answer.

So why do I officiate? Well, I officiate school ball because it is the challenge. Every play is a challenge. Every call and non call is a challenge. Handling coaches is a challenge. The environment in schools from JH to Varsity is fun. The money is okay to offset my time and travel.

Why do I officiate AAU? Money. Sorry, $20 to $25 a game and doing 4 to 6 a day is a good day's work, plain and simple. HOWEVER, all the challenges are still there, and that is what makes it enjoyable.