Players in Official Scorebook

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BushRef
and is eligible to become a player. He is not eligible to become a player until his name is in the book. It's up to the coach to decide whether to add his name to the book or not. [/B]

Unfortunately, that is your definition of eligible, it is not the RULES BOOK definition. Simply by being dressed in a uniform and present on the bench, the kid is eligible TO BECOME a player.
Under normal circumstances he does not have to become a player, but the requirement to maintain FIVE PLAYERS in the game forces this team member to enter. And as you know, once he enters, he has to be added to the scorebook, thus the T is forced in this case.

It is not up to the coach to decide. His team MUST have FIVE players in the game, if that is possible.
You could allow the coach to tell you that this kid is either ill or injured, and then you could avoid forcing him to enter the game.

You may not like it, but that is the way the rule works.

[Nevadaref]

Again you are using a different definition of eligible. You are hung up on the way that we use that word in everyday speech. For officiating a basketball game that word takes on a very specific meaning. Basketball jargon.

The rules book usage of eligible has nothing to do with grades, transfers, residency, school attendance, discipline, etc.
Those are items that the state organization and the schools themselves determine. During the game it is the official's job to simply look who is dressed out and on the bench. Plain and simple.
I'm not trying to be difficult here, just attempting to give you some guidance. If you choose to do it differently, best wishes to ya.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BushRef
If they ain't on the list, they ain't eligible to play, ...

Actually, he is. There is just a penalty if he does.
Nowhere does the rules book state what you are advocating.
The same is true for a player who is wearing the wrong number or an illegal shirt (jersey). The CAN play, there is just a penalty for the uniform problem.

You certainly wouldn't tell the coach that a kid can't play because his jersey has the wrong number on it, right? You penalize the infraction and the kid plays.
This is the same thing. The kid was simply left off the team member list that was submitted to the scorer. (That may have even been intentional.) Now you simply penalize the team for this infraction, and the kid participates.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BushRef
And why would I want your guidance when that's all it is, is YOUR GUIDANCE, not the rulebook's.

In that case send an email to the NFHS and see what they tell you. Good luck.

[Camron Rust]

Neither side of this debate has any real backing in the rule or case book. It mostly hinges on the definition of "eligible" which is not defined.

The coach could send the player in question to the locker room if he liked...thereby making the player not available.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BushRef

Camron--

How can you allow a player who is not in the book. The short answer is YOU CAN'T. Now, if a player didn't make it into the book, it ought to be up to the coach to decide if he wants to add that player to the book so that he can play. It is not up to the official to force a player into the game just cause he's sitting on the bench with a uniform on.

I agree. I'm saying that just because a player is in the book doesn't mean the coach has to play them.

[Nevadaref]

The main thing that you guys are losing sight of is that a team MUST have FIVE PLAYERS in the game unless all other team members are disqualified, hurt, or ill.
This requirement 3-1-1 overrides any other argument that has been made in this thread.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
The main thing that you guys are losing sight of is that a team MUST have FIVE PLAYERS in the game unless all other team members are disqualified, hurt, or ill.
This requirement 3-1-1 overrides any other argument that has been made in this thread.

I thought you said they also had to be eligible.
That's what this whole debate seems to be hinging on.

Is a player eligible just because he is sitting on the bench in the school's uniform?
Can a coach suit up a player that was ejected the night before? (As long as he doesn't enter him in the book)
Can a coach suit up a player that is not eligible because of grades, etc.? (As long as he doesn't enter him in the book)
If we, as officials, see a player in uniform...do we have to assume he is eligible?

As Camaron said...these questions are not addressed in our rule book. I believe they would be administrative issues with the school and/or state.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude
As Camaron said...these questions are not addressed in our rule book. I believe they would be administrative issues with the school and/or state.


[/B]

Agree with that completely. I just can't imagine ordering a coach to put in a player that he has told me is sick, hurt, ineligible, etc. That's a law suit waiting to happen.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree with that completely. I just can't imagine ordering a coach to put in a player that he has told me is sick, hurt, ineligible, etc. That's a law suit waiting to happen. [/B]

Yep.

[bgtg19]

Although the tone and tenor of this discussion isn't exemplary, I think this raises an interesting and potentially valuable point.

The rules require a team to play 5 available "players," but an individual is not a "player" unless s/he is "eligible" to be a "player." In my humble opinion, an individual is not eligible to become a player if s/he is not listed in the scorer's book. It is up to the coach/school to determine who they want to put in the book (and thus make eligible). If a kid isn't listed in the scorer's book, regardless of whether that kid is in uniform, I am *not* making that kid enter the game.

(As has been alluded to earlier, a team can - at the expense of a T - add individuals to the scorer's book who are then eligible to become players, but I don't think the rules give me, as an official, the authority to force a team to do so.)

Two scenarios: (1) a JV squad member is in her uniform sitting behind the bench and cheering the varsity squad; varsity squad, via injury and disqualification, is down to four players; is anyone making the varsity coach add the JV squad member to her varsity squad, penalizing a T, and making the JV squad member enter the game? [The answer is "No"!]
(2) a varsity squad member is caught driking the night before; the coach won't play that squad member but requires her to sit on the team bench in uniform; coach doesn't list that squad member in the scorer's book; is anyone making the varsity coach add the varsity squad member to the scorer's book, penalizing a T, and making the "driking-suspended" squad member enter the game? [The answer is, or should be, "No"!]

My $.02.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by RookieDude

I thought you said they also had to be eligible.
That's what this whole debate seems to be hinging on.

Actually, all I did was quote the definition of a TEAM MEMBER. The rule contains that phrase.

4-34-4 A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

All this means is that this team member has not been previously disqualified and thus barred from further participation. It has nothing to do with the scorebook. Don't make that leap.

Originally posted by RookieDude
Is a player eligible just because he is sitting on the bench in the school's uniform?

YES. He has met the definition of a team member, and as long as he is not a disqualified player 4-14-1, he is eligible. That is all that is required by the NFHS Rules Book.

Originally posted by RookieDude
Can a coach suit up a player that was ejected the night before? (As long as he doesn't enter him in the book)

Not in the state of Nevada. We have a state association regulation that says the kid cannot even attend the game. He can't even be in the gym up in the stands in street clothes.
However, there is NO requirement in the NFHS rules that a kid be suspended for a game due to actions in a previous game. That is TOTALLY up to your state, and if your state doesn't have a regulation against it, then yes the kid can be there.
How are you supposed to know what happened in the previous game? You weren't there. Not your issue. Just apply what's in the rules book and let the state association sort it all out later.

Originally posted by RookieDude
Can a coach suit up a player that is not eligible because of grades, etc.? (As long as he doesn't enter him in the book)

Same answer as above.

Originally posted by RookieDude
If we, as officials, see a player in uniform...do we have to assume he is eligible?

ABSOLUTELY! The converse assumption would be ridiculous as we would have to assume that the entire team was ineligible until they were proven eligible. That's not the way it works.

Originally posted by RookieDude
As Camaron said...these questions are not addressed in our rule book. I believe they would be administrative issues with the school and/or state.

Right. As an official on the court, you can't possibly know all the other stuff that goes on off it. Therefore, you keep it simple.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 26th, 2005 at 03:10 AM]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BushRef
Nevada--

You are so wrong it isn't even funny. The fact that a person is sitting on the bench in uniform is NOT what makes them eligible.

I'm sure that you aren't an attorney, since you have demonstrated your total inability to grasp the concept of jargon. (: the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of a special activity or group)

As I've told you before, eligible is being used in a very narrow and specific way in the NFHS Rules Book. It means "hasn't been disqualified." That's all. You just can't understand that.

Have you contacted the NFHS yet as I asked you to?
Until then, you have no basis for your remark.
It is as obtuse as those you have made in some of your other posts. Especially, the one toward rainmaker.

So come on now, accept the challenge and contact the NFHS. Let's see you actually back up something that you say for once.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I'm sure that you aren't an attorney, since you have demonstrated your total inability to grasp the concept of jargon. (: the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of a special activity or group)

As I've told you before, eligible is being used in a very narrow and specific way in the NFHS Rules Book. It means "hasn't been disqualified." That's all. You just can't understand that.

Have you contacted the NFHS yet as I asked you to?
Until then, you have no basis for your remark.
It is as obtuse as those you have made in some of your other posts. Especially, the one toward rainmaker.

So come on now, accept the challenge and contact the NFHS. Let's see you actually back up something that you say for once.

Rule 3-1 says a game must start with 5 players. If it has no substitutes because of injuries etc. they may play with less than 5. 4-34-4 says a team member is bench personnel who is in uniform and eligible to be a player.

If the coach is disciplining a player or players by suspending them for a game and requiring them to be in uniform on the bench (a not uncommon event I think you would agree) and thus making them ineligible to play as per team or school rule I would not force them to play. I beleive that I can do this as per rule 2-3.

I see nothing in the case book supporting your contention nor mine for that matter. 4-34-4 is basically saying an eligible player must be in uniform. If a Coach tells me that player is ineligible to play that's good enough for me. I'm hanging my hat on 2-3 and supporting the Coach.

There's nothing worse than watching your team lose because you broke a team rule. A lesson well learned and you shouldn't interfer with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Actually, all I did was quote the definition of a TEAM MEMBER. The rule contains that phrase.

4-34-4 A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

All this means is that this team member has not been previously disqualified and thus barred from further participation. It has nothing to do with the scorebook. Don't make that leap.

YES. He has met the definition of a team member, and as long as he is not a disqualified player 4-14-1, he is eligible. That is all that is required by the NFHS Rules Book.

...

ABSOLUTELY! The converse assumption would be ridiculous as we would have to assume that the entire team was ineligible until they were proven eligible. That's not the way it works.

Right. As an official on the court, you can't possibly know all the other stuff that goes on off it. Therefore, you keep it simple.

Kid on the bench in uniform won some school contest to dress and sit with the team on the bench. Is that an eligible player?

The 48 year-old assistant coach is in a uniform. Eligible player?

The coaches 8 year-old son is on the bench and in uniform. Is he an eligible player?

By your definitions, these are all eligible.
Are you really going to force the coach to put an 8 year-old or 48 year-old into the game just because they're on the bench and have a uniform on.

Even if they were actually team members, all the coach has to do is tell them to remove thier shirt and they're no longer eligible by your interpretation.

As you said, you can't possibly know what is really going on. Keep it simple here. Coach says no eligible subs...there are no eligible subs.