Players in Official Scorebook

[Forksref]

If the coach REALLY wanted to teach a lesson, the kid would not be dressed for the game. Reminds me of some football coaches who penalized players by keeping them out of the first quarter. Some lesson!

[Daryl H. Long]

Since you can not attack neither my logic nor my rules knowledge you have to attack me. This is a common tactic of debate when someone has been so thoroughly discredited he has to deflect the argument to cover his own shortcomings.

The number of my posts is low and I pick and choose wisely if and when to respond. But when I do everyone knows completely where I stand because I am very concise at what I say and back up my arguments with the proper rules citations. (See my earlier "sermon"...as of yet nothing to dispute what I said).

[BktBallRef]

Partner, if I ever attack you, you'll know it. I simply didn't appreciate your remarks, and expressed that.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 27th, 2005 at 12:30 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
Since you can not attack neither my logic nor my rules knowledge you have to attack me. This is a common tactic of debate when someone has been so thoroughly discredited he has to deflect the argument to cover his own shortcomings.

The number of my posts is low and I pick and choose wisely if and when to respond. But when I do everyone knows completely where I stand because I am very concise at what I say and back up my arguments with the proper rules citations. (See my earlier "sermon"...as of yet nothing to dispute what I said).

Nope, we're attacking your name-calling and demeaning posts. That says a lot about you as a person.

Btw, from what I've seen of your posts, your logic isn't very logical at times either. Jmo.

[Nevadaref]

Let me start by saying thanks to those who responded to Mr. Long's derogatory comment. It means a tremendous amount to me that I have garnered your respect. Actually, I consider having the respect of your peers to be one of the highest honors anyone could have in an avocation. We may not always agree, but we can certainly disagree civilly. As you have perceived, I certainly care about HS officiating in general, and personally improving at it, and your opinions have shown the same and thus matter to me.

Mr. Long, never have I disparaged you, nor would I over something so petty as a disagreement over basketball rules. You owe me an apology.

Now to the small stuff:

Originally posted by BushRef
The coach has suspended the player for whatever reason
and is not eligible by the school rule which would take
precedence. By not being in he book also indicates he
is not a player.

The above interpretation came directly from a member of the NFHS Rules committee.

1. This is NOT the main issue. It is a subsidiary point. The main issue is whether a kid who is not listed in the scorebook MUST enter the game to maintain five players on the floor when all other team members have been disqualified or injured, thus forcing a team technical foul. His entry is NOT complicated by outside eligibility issues such as grades or suspension, nor is health a concern. The only problem is that he is not in the scorebook and the coach doesn't want to put him into it.
This is the real question and the case in which I firmly the kid must enter the game or it should be forfeited.

Please pose this scenario to your connection on the rules committee and see what he says.

2. Now we will handle point 1A.

This doesn't seem like the writing of a rules committee member due to the misuse of the term player. I never have contended that the student who is not in the book is a player. I only have argued that he is a TEAM MEMBER.
That aside, for now I will give BushRef the benefit of the doubt that this really did come from a committee member. How about you tell us which one though?

I also don't believe that one member's thoughts carry the day, afterall there are thirteen of these folks, although those thoughts should carry more weight than mine.
The final word on this likely hasn't been written yet. It may well turn out that the NFHS wants to handle ineligible/suspended players Mr. Long's way. I would not have a problem with that, but it should be made explicitly clear in the NFHS rules. Right now it is definitely not clear. Even BktBallRef who is the President of his association and has officiated the state tournament has a similar opinion to mine on the current reading of the rules with regard to this situation.
A coach could definitely fib to avoid a technical foul in the right situation of a game. This possibility should be precluded by the rules. The rule should be black and white.
Therefore, I strongly suggest to the NFHS that they make it simple by adopting what I have advocated, if that has not been the interpretation all along.
Simply put, if the student athlete is dressed in a uniform and seated on the team bench, then he is eligible to participate. If the student doesn't meet school/league/state association qualifications, then he can't be in uniform. He could be in street clothes on the bench. This is an objective standard and makes it very clear for the game officials.

There are really two issues with the eligibility concern.
1. The student is not allowed to play because of academics or some other school policy.
2. The student was ejected from a previous contest and is serving a suspension.

My state covers the second situation quite nicely. That student cannot attend the game, so there will not be a problem of this nature in Nevada.
Here is our state association regulation:
2080.0303 Ejections
...
In all cases, if a student or coach has been rendered ineligible to participate due to an ejection, the student or coach is prohibited from being on the premises during that game, contest or meet and any other game, contest or meet from which the student or coach has been excluded as a result of the ejection.

A coach or student who is ejected from a game, contest or meet is prohibited from being on the premises during the game, contest or meet from which he/she has been ejected
or rendered ineligible as a result of the ejection, as well as the next regularly scheduled
game, contest or meet.

1. Premises shall be defined as the total area in which the game, contest or meet takes place including any area designated for spectators.

2. No student ejected from a game, contest or meet at a venue away from the student's home school shall be left unsupervised. It shall be the responsibility of the
student's head coach to ensure proper adult supervision of the student takes place.


Sadly, it does not do as nice a job with the first situation (and I have just emailed them about it) as academically ineligible students are prohibited from playing, but the regulations say nothing about their attending such contests, let alone suiting up in a uniform and sitting on the bench. This could definitely pose a problem.

2070.1201 Participation of Ineligible Student In Game, Contest or Meet

A student who is declared ineligible for participation in any NIAA sanctioned sport pursuant to
NIAA Regulations is prohibited from appearing in any game, contest or meet.

2070.1202 Practice

A student who is declared ineligible for participation in any NIAA sport during a particular season
may practice if the coach and principal of the member or affiliate school grant approval.

a. Any ineligible student is prohibited from participating in any interscholastic
competition including, but not limited to, scrimmages, exhibitions, etc.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 27th, 2005 at 06:40 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Let me start by saying thanks to those who responded to Mr. Long's derogatory comment. It means a tremendous amount to me that I have garnered your respect. Actually, I consider having the respect of your peers to be one of the highest honors anyone could have in an avocation. We may not always agree, but we can certainly disagree civilly. As you have perceived, I certainly care about HS officiating in general, and personally improving at it, and your opinions have shown the same and thus matter to me.

Mr. Long, never have I disparaged you, nor would I over something so petty as a disagreement over basketball rules. You owe me an apology.

Now to the small stuff:

1. This is NOT the main issue. It is a subsidiary point. The main issue is whether a kid who is not listed in the scorebook MUST enter the game to maintain five players on the floor when all other team members have been disqualified or injured, thus forcing a team technical foul. His entry is NOT complicated by outside eligibility issues such as grades or suspension, nor is health a concern. The only problem is that he is not in the scorebook and the coach doesn't want to put him into it.
This is the real question and the case in which I firmly the kid must enter the game or it should be forfeited.

Please pose this scenario to your connection on the rules committee and see what he says.

2. Now we will handle point 1A.

This doesn't seem like the writing of a rules committee member due to the misuse of the term player. I never have contended that the student who is not in the book is a player. I only have argued that he is a TEAM MEMBER.
That aside, for now I will give BushRef the benefit of the doubt that this really did come from a committee member. How about you tell us which one though?

I also don't believe that one member's thoughts carry the day, afterall there are thirteen of these folks, although those thoughts should carry more weight than mine.
The final word on this likely hasn't been written yet. It may well turn out that the NFHS wants to handle ineligible/suspended players Mr. Long's way. I would not have a problem with that, but it should be made explicitly clear in the NFHS rules. Right now it is definitely not clear. Even BktBallRef who is the President of his association and has officiated the state tournament has a similar opinion to mine on the current reading of the rules with regard to this situation.
A coach could definitely fib to avoid a technical foul in the right situation of a game. This possibility should be precluded by the rules. The rule should be black and white.
Therefore, I strongly suggest to the NFHS that they make it simple by adopting what I have advocated, if that has not been the interpretation all along.
Simply put, if the student athlete is dressed in a uniform and seated on the team bench, then he is eligible to participate. If the student doesn't meet school/league/state association qualifications, then he can't be in uniform. He could be in street clothes on the bench. This is an objective standard and makes it very clear for the game officials.

There are really two issues with the eligibility concern.
1. The student is not allowed to play because of academics or some other school policy.
2. The student was ejected from a previous contest and is serving a suspension.

My state covers the second situation quite nicely. That student cannot attend the game, so there will not be a problem of this nature in Nevada.
Here is our state association regulation:
2080.0303 Ejections
...
In all cases, if a student or coach has been rendered ineligible to participate due to an ejection, the student or coach is prohibited from being on the premises during that game, contest or meet and any other game, contest or meet from which the student or coach has been excluded as a result of the ejection.

A coach or student who is ejected from a game, contest or meet is prohibited from being on the premises during the game, contest or meet from which he/she has been ejected
or rendered ineligible as a result of the ejection, as well as the next regularly scheduled
game, contest or meet.

1. Premises shall be defined as the total area in which the game, contest or meet takes place including any area designated for spectators.

2. No student ejected from a game, contest or meet at a venue away from the student's home school shall be left unsupervised. It shall be the responsibility of the
student's head coach to ensure proper adult supervision of the student takes place.


Sadly, it does not do as nice a job with the first situation (and I have just emailed them about it) as academically ineligible students are prohibited from playing, but the regulations say nothing about their attending such contests, let alone suiting up in a uniform and sitting on the bench. This could definitely pose a problem.

2070.1201 Participation of Ineligible Student In Game, Contest or Meet

A student who is declared ineligible for participation in any NIAA sanctioned sport pursuant to
NIAA Regulations is prohibited from appearing in any game, contest or meet.

2070.1202 Practice

A student who is declared ineligible for participation in any NIAA sport during a particular season
may practice if the coach and principal of the member or affiliate school grant approval.

a. Any ineligible student is prohibited from participating in any interscholastic
competition including, but not limited to, scrimmages, exhibitions, etc.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 27th, 2005 at 06:40 AM]

So, Nevada, when is your dissertation defense scheduled?!?

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Forksref
If the coach REALLY wanted to teach a lesson, the kid would not be dressed for the game. Reminds me of some football coaches who penalized players by keeping them out of the first quarter. Some lesson!

I humbly disagree nothing like being in uniform benched for the game and knowing that you can't play.

[gordon30307]

Nevada, I disagree with your stance. As per my previous post no case play to support you and none to support my opinion. Ergo. one could use 2-3 and if the Coach wants to play with 4 for disciplinary reasons that would be fine with me.

IMHO this makes so much sense that I would be surprised if the Fed. thought otherwise. Here we are complaining about kids out of control etc. and you have a Coach trying to instill discipline and by our actions we are kinda sorta cutting his legs out from under him. Seems counter productive to me.

Don't expect you to agree so we can agree to disagree. If you can site one case play from a well known reputable source the Fed., Ref. Magazine, Interp. etc. I would do as you suggested.

[Edited by gordon30307 on Jan 27th, 2005 at 11:33 AM]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by rainmaker

So, Nevada, when is your dissertation defense scheduled?!?

The Ph.D. in DeNucci studies?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

NevedaRef:

It does not matter how many "people in uniform" are sitting on the bench, if their names are not in the scorebook, they are not eligible per the rules to enter the game. And more importantly the Referee does not have the authority to make a Head Coach enter any of those “people” into the scorebook. Just give it up, because there is nothing in the rules that gives the Referee that authority to compel a Head Coach to enter the names in the scorebook. As far as R2-S3: As they say in New York City – Forget about it.

MTD, Sr.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by gordon30307

I humbly disagree nothing like being in uniform benched for the game and knowing that you can't play.

When I coached HS and college basketball I NEVER dressed a kid that had no chance of playing due to injury or ineligibility. And, I didn't get into humiliating players as a punishment.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Forksref

When I coached HS and college basketball I NEVER dressed a kid that had no chance of playing due to injury or ineligibility. And, I didn't get into humiliating players as a punishment.

But it's not our job to enforce our style of coaching and discipline.

[Forksref]

Agreed!

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Forksref

When I coached HS and college basketball I NEVER dressed a kid that had no chance of playing due to injury or ineligibility. And, I didn't get into humiliating players as a punishment.

It's humiliating and embarassing to be benched for disciplanary reasons how could it be any other way? I fail to see the difference if a player is benched if he's in the stands or if he's with his team. It's humiliating and embarassing either way. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. JMO

[Forksref]

A reasonable person would see that forcing a kid to sit on the bench in uniform is more humiliating than not being on the bench at all and even can be considered punishment. I am not into punishment. I am into working with the kids to make disciplinary events a "learning" situation. I don't talk about "doing time." That is non-productive. Everyone makes mistakes. I like to help them learn from them. Nuff said.