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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2004, 02:15am
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Quote:
Originally posted by David B
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I've called one head coach T in the last ten or so years, though.

--Rich
I pride myself in having great ref/coach relationships, but to be quite honest, 1 technical foul in ten years seems a little out of whack (pun intended). Unless you are only working 15 games per year, you might be letting your partners take care of business or you might not be managing your coaches (and maybe that system you work under lends itself to that).

Z
I dont' agree with that at all. In the last 10 years I have only called 2 T's on a head coach (one last week) And I don't have any problems with coaches.

I am approachable, but I also let them know that I won't tolerate anything but respect. Maybe since I've been doing baseball for 24 years I've just learned how to properly handle a coach since in baseball you have no penalties except the ejection.

Now I've had many many T's on a player and also 8-10 on an assistant coach.

The one thing I will NOT tolerate is a lack of sportsmanship from the players and the coaches. I think when coaches know what is expected they will go a lot further in helping you reach that goal.

This year our state has also let us start evaluating the schools which includes the coach. The last three years the coaches could grade us, but we got no feedback on them.

I think that is much better because the coach knows that he is going to be evaluated also when he's doing his reports.

There are many guys I know who love to hand out the T's, but they don't get the respect of the coaches at all. If you can achieve that without the T, then I think it goes further. JMO

Thanks
David
1 in ten years and 2 in ten years? Wow. I want to transfer to your area. I don't enjoy giving technicals if another option is available, but we have some coaches who are just so intense that they cross the line once in a while, even with the best intervention and communication techniques.

One of them gets about 10 T's a year from various officials because about every other game, he goes about 10 feet past the coaching box line while yelling and gesturing about a "missed call." In our state, bench decorum is highly stressed and being out of the box while complaining at an official is about as automatic as it gets. Let a coach do that at the state tournament and you're home real quick. We also have a couple of coaches who occasionally will get a T on purpose to "fire up their team."

I don't think I T'd any coaches last year but I think I had about 3 the year before that. I'd say I average about 2 a year. Of course, between girls and boys, I probably work 40-50 varsity contests and 10 sub-varsity contests per season.

We have some officials who average about 15-20 per year. Needless to say, they don't move up in the rankings because about 12 or 13 could have been easily avoided.

We have a couple of coaches I'll loan you so you can get your technical foul totals up a little. Trust me, even Dr. Phil couldn't do an intervention on these guys to avoid a T sometimes.

Z
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 23, 2004, 05:38pm
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In my opinion, it's only going to get worse. Or that's the way it looks. Therefore, we need to come up with something because most of this stuff starts at the lower levels of course (7/8th grade) and this is where young officials start as well. Most of them are afraid to give a T because they are afraid they won't get hired back.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 01:08am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Blum
The question I have about this is how many officials have to get their own games which are assigned by the schools AD's or coaches? I know that right now in Indiana we have to get our most of our own games that are assigned by the Ad's and Coaches.

Let me ask you guys that are trying to move up to the Varsity levels or want to continue to get the varsity games you are getting, How likely are you to allow a coach a little more leash because you them or the AD is assigning your game?

This is just a thought I had when reading this, that because of the way the games are assigned an official is more likely to let more go. I feel that there might be a correlation between the way games are assigned and the sportsmanship of a coach, which in turn makes the players on the team have a little less sportsmanship.

Just throwing this out to see what people think.
When I read about officials who have to get games from A.D.'s, I feel pretty fortunate to be in a state where our local association does all the assigning.

I'd hate to ref a game and get the feeling (conscious or otherwise) that I might get less games if I gave a deserved technical foul to a coach.

I'd also hate to ref in an area where coaches can have input to my ratings.... seems like giving a well deserved technical foul in that case might hurt too.

Z
I get many of my games from ADs and I would be 0% less likely to whack a deserving one. If it costs me a school, great -- I'd probably rather not work there anyway.

I've called one head coach T in the last ten or so years, though.

--Rich
I knew I shouldn't have posted that. I whacked a varsity boys head coach in the fourth quarter of my game today. But I was in Illinois today working a Christmas tournament.

My attitude on technical fouls has always been: Will this make the game better OR did the coach do something completely egregious and need to be punished for it?

I try to communicate in basketball as best I can. I will discuss fouls that I call and I will talk to a coach even if I have to stand there and listen to a coach disagree with me.

Today I had one coach in my ear in the first half. He didn't like a foul that I called and thought the post player traveled before he got fouled. I reported and went tableside and he asked me what I saw. I told him and he disagreed and I waited until he repeated himself before walking away. He continued and I had to turn and tell him to turn the page as the play was over.

The other coach wasn't so lucky.

The game was sloppy as we had the 13th place game or something like that (16 team tourney). Lots of defensive pressure up top. Kid didn't like the pressure, so he threw an elbow and the defender went down. Player control foul. Coach yells at the top of his lungs "Just put your hands all over them and then flop just like they do." Whack. Jerk.

The coach violated a very important rule (in my mind). He showed us up in front of everyone.

I certainly know how to take care of business. I ejected 12 coaches/players from baseball games in 2004 (in about 100 games). I threw 2 USC flags on varsity head football coaches this season.

In basketball I put the ball in play and either the coach goes back to coaching his team or he clearly makes an a$$ of himself in front of everyone and he gets whacked.

And I'm probably exaggerating a bit when I say one T in 10 years. I only remember 1 -- the one from last season. I don't remember much from more than 2 seasons ago.

--Rich
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 01:11am
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Re: Question to Rich

Quote:
Originally posted by imaref
Noticed that you're a Wisconsin Ref....What are your thoughts regarding having to file reports to the WIAA for the Technicals you call? Personally, I feel it's kind of a double edged sword. Technicals are occassionally "part of the game". Generally they create emotional responses from Coaches, players and fans...Coaches ratings (supposedly objective) of officials generally are impacted by "Ts". Agree?

Point I'm trying to make and find out from you is....are you affected by the requirement of filing a report to the WIAA as to how patient you are in "T"-ing up a coach? And the secondary action of getting "torpedoed" on your rating from that coach?

Just wanted to see what another Wisconsin ref's perspective is on these two issues.

wl
It takes a minute to file the online report. I do it when I'm the referee on the game, so I've reported technicals, ejections in baseball, USC flags in football on coaches, etc.

Ratings don't bother me a bit. As a third year in the state kinda guy, I just reached L5 this season in my sports -- this is the first year I'm playoff eligible in hoops and will be the first season in 2005 (baseball) I'm sectional eligible. I'd rather do my job and if that costs me a playoff assignment, so be it.

But there are a handful of schools I don't call/email because I'd rather sit home than work those schools. No names, of course
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 01:17am
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
In my opinion, it's only going to get worse. Or that's the way it looks. Therefore, we need to come up with something because most of this stuff starts at the lower levels of course (7/8th grade) and this is where young officials start as well. Most of them are afraid to give a T because they are afraid they won't get hired back.
If I worked subvarsity games I'd be handing out technical fouls like Girl Scouts hand out cookies. I work nothing but varsity high school games and a few college games here and there.

I worked a varsity game last week and there was a coach who was the assistant for both the JV and varsity teams. In the JV game I counted up at least three or four occasions where I would've whacked him. Frankly, the officiating was (opinion redacted), but the coach was still way out of line.

In the varsity game, that coach didn't say a single word.

I've seen that a lot.

--Rich
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 01:42am
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman


When I read about officials who have to get games from A.D.'s, I feel pretty fortunate to be in a state where our local association does all the assigning.

I'd hate to ref a game and get the feeling (conscious or otherwise) that I might get less games if I gave a deserved technical foul to a coach.

I'd also hate to ref in an area where coaches can have input to my ratings.... seems like giving a well deserved technical foul in that case might hurt too.

Z
I still get games at many schools where the AD/Coach does their own assigning. They need you more than you need them. Trust me on that one. Because if they do not like the job you do, and try not to ask you back, they will see you on the road somewhere. Coaches are paranoid animals. They think everyone is out to get them. Also understand that these schools have to get assignments filled from every level at that school. Sometimes they have to assign the Junior High levels and any other tournament that comes along. If a coach pisses off the officials, they will not go and work any of those games. It is not as easy as you think for them to just not ask an official back. The one thing about assignors is that the official might not ever know he or she has been banned. If that happens with a school and an official, the official knows. Most ADs that I have come in contact with do everything not to piss off the officials because of the ripple affect that might happen if they just ban an official. But until you have been in that system, it is hard to understand.

Peace
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 05:38am
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Yes the level of sportsmanship remains pretty low. I had a game today as part of a girls JV/Varsity DH, during the JV game, the visiting team is losing big and during a TO I overhear the coach use the words, "push her" and the context sounded like she was talking about during screening action, like running through the screener. Sure enough, she yells "Push her" across the court with her team on defense and it appears as if her player plowed through a screen, the play didn't occur in my primary and I just heard the coach and saw an offensive player on the ground, and the coach was yelling, "Good job."

My partner and I discuss this and choose to give the coach the benefit of the doubt and decide that I'd approach her and tell her that she should refrain from yelling, "Push her," when it can easily be construed as telling the player to actually intentionally and roughly push through the screen. Of course the coach, who's losing by 20 points and had been making cracks about calls all night decides it's theater hour and during a silent moment in the gym decides to grandstand in front the crowd to mock me. Snide comments like, "Now you're assuming, and you know what happens to people who assume," and she uses the moment to enter into a sarcastic monologue with her players snickering and her fans applauding at the end. I walked away from that, and waited until she had the gall to question the lack of a call by saying, "That's blatent," about a minute later before I whacked her. The nerve, here I am trying to do her a favor and be helpful and she tries to publically mock me and challenge not only my integrety and knowledge, but also my control of the game. What a real classic example of sportsmanship to her team and what a role model for how to treat others. Sadly, at the sub-varsity level this is becoming more of the norm rather than the exception.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 08:44am
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Quote:
Originally posted by SMEngmann
Yes the level of sportsmanship remains pretty low. I had a game today as part of a girls JV/Varsity DH, during the JV game, the visiting team is losing big and during a TO I overhear the coach use the words, "push her" and the context sounded like she was talking about during screening action, like running through the screener. Sure enough, she yells "Push her" across the court with her team on defense and it appears as if her player plowed through a screen, the play didn't occur in my primary and I just heard the coach and saw an offensive player on the ground, and the coach was yelling, "Good job."

My partner and I discuss this and choose to give the coach the benefit of the doubt and decide that I'd approach her and tell her that she should refrain from yelling, "Push her," when it can easily be construed as telling the player to actually intentionally and roughly push through the screen. Of course the coach, who's losing by 20 points and had been making cracks about calls all night decides it's theater hour and during a silent moment in the gym decides to grandstand in front the crowd to mock me. Snide comments like, "Now you're assuming, and you know what happens to people who assume," and she uses the moment to enter into a sarcastic monologue with her players snickering and her fans applauding at the end. I walked away from that, and waited until she had the gall to question the lack of a call by saying, "That's blatent," about a minute later before I whacked her. The nerve, here I am trying to do her a favor and be helpful and she tries to publically mock me and challenge not only my integrety and knowledge, but also my control of the game. What a real classic example of sportsmanship to her team and what a role model for how to treat others. Sadly, at the sub-varsity level this is becoming more of the norm rather than the exception.
I'd say you really did give the coach the benefit of the doubt, she should have got one for her sarcastic monologue.

You see it both ways, sometimes the JV coach is bezerk during his game and then silent as a mouse during V game but sometimes you see the JV coach and then the V coach and wonder why they don't reverse roles. Some of those V coaches think they are spoiled babies.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 10:18am
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Cool Thanks, Rich....!

You're absolutely right regarding the filing the reports. I have no problem with them either. I believe we're on the same page when we choose to communicate over agitate. But...BINGO....when it comes to trying to "show you up". As you stated [The coach violated a very important rule (in my mind). He showed us up in front of everyone.]...Then it's textbook and everyone in the gym knows why he gets the "T".

Thanks for you input. I have always considered the "T" a tool that should be used just as you would calling violations and other fouls when they need to be.

Enjoy the rest of the season!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 11:47am
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Quote:
Originally posted by SMEngmann
Yes the level of sportsmanship remains pretty low. I had a game today as part of a girls JV/Varsity DH, during the JV game, the visiting team is losing big and during a TO I overhear the coach use the words, "push her" and the context sounded like she was talking about during screening action, like running through the screener. Sure enough, she yells "Push her" across the court with her team on defense and it appears as if her player plowed through a screen, the play didn't occur in my primary and I just heard the coach and saw an offensive player on the ground, and the coach was yelling, "Good job."

My partner and I discuss this and choose to give the coach the benefit of the doubt and decide that I'd approach her and tell her that she should refrain from yelling, "Push her," when it can easily be construed as telling the player to actually intentionally and roughly push through the screen. Of course the coach, who's losing by 20 points and had been making cracks about calls all night decides it's theater hour and during a silent moment in the gym decides to grandstand in front the crowd to mock me. Snide comments like, "Now you're assuming, and you know what happens to people who assume," and she uses the moment to enter into a sarcastic monologue with her players snickering and her fans applauding at the end. I walked away from that, and waited until she had the gall to question the lack of a call by saying, "That's blatent," about a minute later before I whacked her. The nerve, here I am trying to do her a favor and be helpful and she tries to publically mock me and challenge not only my integrety and knowledge, but also my control of the game. What a real classic example of sportsmanship to her team and what a role model for how to treat others. Sadly, at the sub-varsity level this is becoming more of the norm rather than the exception.
First, that is an INTENTIONAL foul, no discussion, no benefit of the doubt. You did not even say you or your partner CALLED a foul.

It's the norm because you are ALLOWING it to be, set your boundaries early and STICK to them. In Arizona we have Pursuing Victory with Honor, and one of the main aspects of the program is, as officials what we don't enforce we ENCOURAGE.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 12:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman


When I read about officials who have to get games from A.D.'s, I feel pretty fortunate to be in a state where our local association does all the assigning.

I'd hate to ref a game and get the feeling (conscious or otherwise) that I might get less games if I gave a deserved technical foul to a coach.

I'd also hate to ref in an area where coaches can have input to my ratings.... seems like giving a well deserved technical foul in that case might hurt too.

Z
I still get games at many schools where the AD/Coach does their own assigning. They need you more than you need them. Trust me on that one. Because if they do not like the job you do, and try not to ask you back, they will see you on the road somewhere. Coaches are paranoid animals. They think everyone is out to get them. Also understand that these schools have to get assignments filled from every level at that school. Sometimes they have to assign the Junior High levels and any other tournament that comes along. If a coach pisses off the officials, they will not go and work any of those games. It is not as easy as you think for them to just not ask an official back. The one thing about assignors is that the official might not ever know he or she has been banned. If that happens with a school and an official, the official knows. Most ADs that I have come in contact with do everything not to piss off the officials because of the ripple affect that might happen if they just ban an official. But until you have been in that system, it is hard to understand.

Peace
I worked (probably) the worst game of my life last season. Girls game where either team could've been beaten by a talented eighth grade team.

The fouling early on was extremely one sided -- something like 6 to 0 where the 6 was on the visiting team. The first foul on the home team was a player control foul where the girl led with her arm while driving from the top of the key.

FIRST foul on the home team and the home coach starts in with me, telling me it won't be a foul on the tape. I addressed this comment and we went on with the game.

What I didn't know until my wife told me after the game was that the coach turned to his athletic director and said "Scratch them. Don't renew their contracts." I didn't find that out until I was in the car heading home, but I was already convinced that I wasn't wasting my time working for a coach like that anyway.

Had I heard the coach make that comment, I might have assesed a flagrant technical foul and enjoyed watching him leave. But the saying that Jeff used was a good one -- they can't scratch you on the road. And I have him next Tuesday night. It's likely to be an awful game, but I've decided to be as professional as possible and work it like any other game.

--Rich
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 12:35pm
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Generally speaking, they'll give you just about as much crap as you'll let them give you. Disrespectful behavior is unacceptable. Don't let them go there. You're not there to make friends. You're there to be in charge. The first time a coach acts or speaks disrespectfully, call him on it. Next time whack him. It's like any other part of the game, call it and they'll adjust.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by SMEngmann
Yes the level of sportsmanship remains pretty low. I had a game today as part of a girls JV/Varsity DH, during the JV game, the visiting team is losing big and during a TO I overhear the coach use the words, "push her" and the context sounded like she was talking about during screening action, like running through the screener. Sure enough, she yells "Push her" across the court with her team on defense and it appears as if her player plowed through a screen, the play didn't occur in my primary and I just heard the coach and saw an offensive player on the ground, and the coach was yelling, "Good job."

My partner and I discuss this and choose to give the coach the benefit of the doubt and decide that I'd approach her and tell her that she should refrain from yelling, "Push her," when it can easily be construed as telling the player to actually intentionally and roughly push through the screen. Of course the coach, who's losing by 20 points and had been making cracks about calls all night decides it's theater hour and during a silent moment in the gym decides to grandstand in front the crowd to mock me. Snide comments like, "Now you're assuming, and you know what happens to people who assume," and she uses the moment to enter into a sarcastic monologue with her players snickering and her fans applauding at the end. I walked away from that, and waited until she had the gall to question the lack of a call by saying, "That's blatent," about a minute later before I whacked her. The nerve, here I am trying to do her a favor and be helpful and she tries to publically mock me and challenge not only my integrety and knowledge, but also my control of the game. What a real classic example of sportsmanship to her team and what a role model for how to treat others. Sadly, at the sub-varsity level this is becoming more of the norm rather than the exception.
First, that is an INTENTIONAL foul, no discussion, no benefit of the doubt. You did not even say you or your partner CALLED a foul.

It's the norm because you are ALLOWING it to be, set your boundaries early and STICK to them. In Arizona we have Pursuing Victory with Honor, and one of the main aspects of the program is, as officials what we don't enforce we ENCOURAGE.
I'm with you on these points. In regards to the play, my partner did not call the foul as the T because he was too focused on action with the dribbler and didn't see the whole play. IMO if I was the trail and I saw that, I would've called the intentional foul, but it would be a tough sell to come across the court from the L to call an intentional foul on action right in front of the T (I saw it in my peripheral vision while looking off ball). I discussed the play with my partner next TO, and that's when we decided that I should talk to the coach to prevent this scenario from happening again. Since I initiated the conversation with the coach, I didn't want to be in the position of starting a conversation that ends in a technical, so I walked away and got the coach the next time she tried to test the waters with a sarcastic comment.
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Old Fri Dec 24, 2004, 05:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by SMEngmann
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by SMEngmann
Yes the level of sportsmanship remains pretty low. I had a game today as part of a girls JV/Varsity DH, during the JV game, the visiting team is losing big and during a TO I overhear the coach use the words, "push her" and the context sounded like she was talking about during screening action, like running through the screener. Sure enough, she yells "Push her" across the court with her team on defense and it appears as if her player plowed through a screen, the play didn't occur in my primary and I just heard the coach and saw an offensive player on the ground, and the coach was yelling, "Good job."

My partner and I discuss this and choose to give the coach the benefit of the doubt and decide that I'd approach her and tell her that she should refrain from yelling, "Push her," when it can easily be construed as telling the player to actually intentionally and roughly push through the screen. Of course the coach, who's losing by 20 points and had been making cracks about calls all night decides it's theater hour and during a silent moment in the gym decides to grandstand in front the crowd to mock me. Snide comments like, "Now you're assuming, and you know what happens to people who assume," and she uses the moment to enter into a sarcastic monologue with her players snickering and her fans applauding at the end. I walked away from that, and waited until she had the gall to question the lack of a call by saying, "That's blatent," about a minute later before I whacked her. The nerve, here I am trying to do her a favor and be helpful and she tries to publically mock me and challenge not only my integrety and knowledge, but also my control of the game. What a real classic example of sportsmanship to her team and what a role model for how to treat others. Sadly, at the sub-varsity level this is becoming more of the norm rather than the exception.
First, that is an INTENTIONAL foul, no discussion, no benefit of the doubt. You did not even say you or your partner CALLED a foul.

It's the norm because you are ALLOWING it to be, set your boundaries early and STICK to them. In Arizona we have Pursuing Victory with Honor, and one of the main aspects of the program is, as officials what we don't enforce we ENCOURAGE.
I'm with you on these points. In regards to the play, my partner did not call the foul as the T because he was too focused on action with the dribbler and didn't see the whole play. IMO if I was the trail and I saw that, I would've called the intentional foul, but it would be a tough sell to come across the court from the L to call an intentional foul on action right in front of the T (I saw it in my peripheral vision while looking off ball). I discussed the play with my partner next TO, and that's when we decided that I should talk to the coach to prevent this scenario from happening again. Since I initiated the conversation with the coach, I didn't want to be in the position of starting a conversation that ends in a technical, so I walked away and got the coach the next time she tried to test the waters with a sarcastic comment.
Why I don't suggest it as a norm, if you see something outside your primary that is not basketball related...and a coach yelling for their player to push her and that is what happens...go and GET IT.

It's not a hard sell at all, strong whistle close with the X, and get what needs to be gotten. Do that and there is no need to talk to the coach, and any reaction out of her and a whacking we shall go.

We all regret how we handle a situation now and then, so file it away and learn from it.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 25, 2004, 08:37am
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It's not just a problem with the ADs, sometimes the association doesn't support you either. I gave a coach a well-deserved technical foul for insulting me during a game. We have deletions in NV and so this coach simply deleted me this season. There was no reason provided and the association's leaders chose to honor it over my objection. All this tells me is that the officials who take care of business will not be assigned to games in the future.
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