Coach takes a charge!!!

[Mark Dexter]

Hmm - still not sure if I would T up the coach or not in this situation. Here are my thoughts, though.

1. How far out on the court is the coach? A step or two over the sideline when I'm also running up-court - I'll pass. Or was he at the lane line extended? Did any of the opposing players have to change their route to avoid him? Did they even have to think about changing their route?

2. Is this going to make the game better? The coach is excited - if I tell him to stay in the box, is he going to realize he was out, or is he going to get ticked at me? Has the opposing coach been out of the box and, if so, what warnings/penalties have I imposed on him?

3. If you choose to T the coach, it needs to be immediately. To wait for A to make the layup and then give B two shots penalizes team B, which should have the potential to make a 2 point shift in the game.

4. As to who should call this - obviously this would be best to have a call from your partner, and it's good that you held off on the whistle because he had a no-call. However, I think that you giving a T would be completely appropriate in this case - it's protecting your partner's a**. I think this would be a great pre-game situation to discuss, especially this aspect - far too often one official has his back turned, a partner sees something, but calls nothing (not that that's happened to me or anything ).

[cmckenna]

JEBPE...

Think about Advantage/Disadvantage this way.....


A player is on a fast break full length of the court. One defender between him and the basket at mid court. As he passes that defender he gets slapped but is able to continue on his path and make an easy uncontested layup for 2.

Now, if I officiate as you say, by the book, the slap is a foul. I would have to blow it dead at the point it occured, mid court. Let's assume no bonus yet.

So what happens... We have to put the ball in play with a throw in giving the defense time to get setup.

In this example, I have penalized the offense by not letting that player complete an easy layup for 2 points.

I'm sorry, but advantage/disadvantage has to be applied in basketball or it would become a really boring game.

You say the players will learn to adjust... by the book contact is a foul, I can't imagine no matter how hard the players would work to adjust could you have a basketball game with no contact.

[Forksref]

That's an automatic in my opinion. In FB I flag any coach with whom I make contact during the play on the field. The court is for players and officials only.

BTW, was he maybe setting a pick?

[Damian]

You said it was a noisy gym and everyone including the coaches were into it. You did not say if both coaches entered the floor during their coaching.

I would think that if this had been going on for some time, calling a T at the end of the game would have been wrong. If on the other hand, you had buzzed the coach a few times and asked him to stay off the floor, then the T would have been given.

[jebPE]

CMc,

I understand what you are saying.

I guess it boils down to the question of what the official's responsibility is.

In your scenario, I believe the foul for the slap would be the right call.

I don't believe the officials are responsible for making the game interesting...that is the players' responsibility, just as it is the players' responsibility to know the rules.

I also don't believe the old saying of "the refs decided the game" holds any water if the game is called in strict accordance with the rules...the players thusly decide the game by breaking the rules and suffering the consequences.

When you introduce subjective judgment calls (e.g., "no advantage was gained, so no foul was required") into the game, you are flirting with situational ethics, and then the above saying DOES hold water.

The only completely FAIR way to do it, IMO, is to call every breach of the rules that you personally see.

This certainly might not be the most exciting way, but it is the fairest way, but I'd rather see my team lose a fairly called game than win an unfairly called game.

[jebPE]

CMc,

One danger that I could envision by an official taking it upon himself to keep the game exciting is that of the effect of not making calls early on, and then the play gets REALLY rough (perhaps because nobody has any fouls).

Later on in the game the official might be thinking to himself, "I didn't call that earlier, so I can't really call it now".

Then somebody gets hurt.

This happened at the game I attended last Tuesday; A1 was going after a loose ball, got control, and B1 came running after it and collided HARD with A1 (concussion-hard...A1 was OK, but you get the idea). Foul WAS called, but he (along with the rest of Team B) had several to give.

That was one sloppy basketball game from all parties involved (A,B, and O's).

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by jebPE

Then somebody gets hurt.

This happened at the game I attended last Tuesday; A1 was going after a loose ball, got control, and B1 came running after it and collided HARD with A1 (concussion-hard...A1 was OK, but you get the idea). Foul WAS called, but he (along with the rest of Team B) had several to give.

That was one sloppy basketball game from all parties involved (A,B, and O's).

Whatinthehell does this have to do with advantage/disadvantage? Or with referee'ing?
Or with anything?

Players get hurt, it's part of the game. Regardless of how the game is called or the skill of the officials.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Hmm - still not sure if I would T up the coach or not in this situation. Here are my thoughts, though.

1. How far out on the court is the coach? A step or two over the sideline when I'm also running up-court - I'll pass. Or was he at the lane line extended? Did any of the opposing players have to change their route to avoid him? Did they even have to think about changing their route?

2. Is this going to make the game better? The coach is excited - if I tell him to stay in the box, is he going to realize he was out, or is he going to get ticked at me? Has the opposing coach been out of the box and, if so, what warnings/penalties have I imposed on him?

3. If you choose to T the coach, it needs to be immediately. To wait for A to make the layup and then give B two shots penalizes team B, which should have the potential to make a 2 point shift in the game.

4. As to who should call this - obviously this would be best to have a call from your partner, and it's good that you held off on the whistle because he had a no-call. However, I think that you giving a T would be completely appropriate in this case - it's protecting your partner's a**. I think this would be a great pre-game situation to discuss, especially this aspect - far too often one official has his back turned, a partner sees something, but calls nothing (not that that's happened to me or anything ).

Could you give us an approximation as to how far out on the court is ok for the coach? You mean if you, as an official, run into the coach while you are ON the court, it's ok?? You ignore it? Are you able to officiate the game when trying to avoid coaches who are ON the floor? While YOU are on the floor, knocked over by running into a coach? Are you serious??

Apparently, your safety, the coach's safety, and the players' safety is not an issue here, let alone being able to officiate without physical barriers.

[Camron Rust]

If a coach interferes with my ability to cover the play by making contact with me inbounds, it will be a T (flagrant if deliberate). No if's, and's or but's about this one. I may let him coach from out of the box but he MUST stay out of the way.

[jritchie]

The coach was about 4 or 6 feet out on the floor and about a foot away from the mid court line!! both coaches have been out doing it a little, he just came out a little farther this time....

like i said, they were both coaching in a loud gym trying to win a seeded district game in a tight district!! they were not saying a word to us and YES THE COACHES WERE BOTH ASKED TO "TRY" AND STAY "CLOSE" TO THEIR BOXES WHILE COACHING.. But i still didn't think the "T" would of done the game any good...

i did however cover the play for my partner and then after the layup did stop play to make sure everyone was okay...

in my opinion i think how it was handled was best for the game, but is definitely something to talk about in pre'game talks...

[tomegun]

It seems like this might be something that should have been addressed earlier in the game. I think 4-6 feet out on the court and one foot from half court is a little extreme. It makes me pause while typing this message so I can see how the situation would bring some doubt. However, I'm leaning towards blasting him.
I could be totally off base but the picture I'm painting in my mind is that of a rivalry game with the stands packed that is close. It can be an emotional situation and you may want to refrain from inserting yourself into the game too much. Although it might be hard-core at the time, we can't get caught up in the moment because it is a tough game. Even though things turned out right, it could result in your partner's last game, ever! A serious injury was/is a possibility when running hard and not looking where you are running to. I'm assuming by "seeded district game" you mean it will and can effect the outcome for playoffs. If, at the end of the year, the coach can say that he didn't make the playoffs because he got T'd for being close to the center of the court during a live ball then that coach can only blame himself.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by cmckenna
JEBPE...

Think about Advantage/Disadvantage this way.....

A player is on a fast break full length of the court. One defender between him and the basket at mid court. As he passes that defender he gets slapped but is able to continue on his path and make an easy uncontested layup for 2.

Now, if I officiate as you say, by the book, the slap is a foul. I would have to blow it dead at the point it occured, mid court. Let's assume no bonus yet. So what happens... We have to put the ball in play with a throw in giving the defense time to get setup. In this example, I have penalized the offense by not letting that player complete an easy layup for 2 points.

I'm sorry, but advantage/disadvantage has to be applied in basketball or it would become a really boring game.

You say the players will learn to adjust... by the book contact is a foul, I can't imagine no matter how hard the players would work to adjust could you have a basketball game with no contact.

Boring schmoring??....it's not for you to determine the excitement level. Fouls on a breakaway should be called, just because A1 may have been strong enough to continue despite the foul is not the issue. If B1 would have grabbed A1 in an attempt to prevent the score you could even go with "X". You talk about advantage/disadvantage by it sounds like you are misguided on when to apply the doctrine.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Forksref

Could you give us an approximation as to how far out on the court is ok for the coach? You mean if you, as an official, run into the coach while you are ON the court, it's ok?? You ignore it? Are you able to officiate the game when trying to avoid coaches who are ON the floor? While YOU are on the floor, knocked over by running into a coach? Are you serious??

Apparently, your safety, the coach's safety, and the players' safety is not an issue here, let alone being able to officiate without physical barriers.

There's a big difference between having one foot on the court and being ten feet out on it. Also, sometimes the coach is standing out of bounds, but close to the line, and I might be running up out of bounds - I'm not going to penalize him if we collide.

As to how far - I need to be there to see it.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
The rule is you can't be on the court (out of the coach's box).

You were already letting him be out of the box so essentially you had already decided not to T him for this rule violation. And perhaps it was appropriate. He wasn't harping on you; he was coaching his kids in a very noisy gym.

You can't T him because you collided with him - that's not a rule.

The collision was incidental and surely not intentional. I say you should have busted butt and covered the play for your partner and forgot about a T-bone.

After the collision, regroup; call an official's time if your partner needs it to collect himself. Tell the coach he really needs to stay closer to home and definitely shouldn't be on the court or out in front of the table. Then finish your game.

I doubt either team, fans, or players, or anyone would have wanted a technical foul called. It would probably have been a disruption rather than an improvement to the game. The coach may have been humbled if you had called a T, but he may very well have become angry now and made the rest of the game a hell for you. I think the right thing happened without a T.

Just my quarter's worth.

Intentional or not the coach has no business being on the floor if not at least for the safety issue (as proven in this sitch) of causing collisions with players or officials.

If your state uses a coaches box then you should be reminding the coach to confine himself to that area. It's not a case of being over officious by having these coaches adhere to Rule 10-5. Too often I see a coach being allowed to roam the sideline simply because he is not chirping but coaching even though the box is there. Collisions like the one in the original sitch could be much more serious and lead to injury that should have been avoided.

More equals Less:

More prevention (pre-game reminders) + more enforcement (game time direction) = Less T's and collisions.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by jebPE
CMc,

I understand what you are saying.

I guess it boils down to the question of what the official's responsibility is.

As you mentioned in a previous post, basketball is not golf. For one thing, basketball is played on the run and contact is inevitable. The basketball rules recognize this and give officials the authority to make subjective judgments regarding the amount of contact allowed. The officials' responsibilities are to administer the rules according to the spirit of the game as specified in the rule book. If you read the NFHS rule book and officials manual, I think you will understand why the concept of advantage/disadvantage is mentioned so frequently in these forum discussions.

One of the reasons that golf rules are so explicit is that they are enforced by the golfers themselves. Since basketball has trained, professional officials, the various basketball authorities have left them a lot of discretion in the interpretation of the rules. If you concentrate more on the officiating when you watch the next few games than the play, you can begin to appreciate how much the officials' discretion can mean to ensure that games are played fairly.