Coach takes a charge!!!

[scyguy]

no T in this situation. I agree with DownTown. Common sense should have a place in this decision. Get up, do your job and remind coach to stay off court. Hey, the coach has treated you with respect the whole game, now return the favor. Be a man and do what is right. Not by rule but by common decency.

[jebPE]

Dan-ref,

My comment regarding somebody getting hurt was a supplement to my contention that the official's job is not to keep the game interesting.

It occurs to me that when games are called closely and consistently, that players are less likely to play wildly, and their basketball skills become better for it.

No doubt players will get hurt from time to time, but it would seem to me that part of the official's responsibility is to help prevent injuries (which is directly relevant to the original post...suppose the knocked-down ref fell backward and hit his head on the floor...coach being on the floor is not supposed to be part of the game).


Jimgolf,

I understand where you are coming from. I have only read the NCAA rules (and the differences between NFHS and NCAA), and as I said earlier, I am not an official (although all this discussion is making me lean toward becoming one...gotta couple of daughters at basketball/softball age).

I don't have a problem with discretion or the concept of advantage/disadvantage, per se, particularly with regard to incidental contact.

With regard to the current topic, I would have called a technical foul on the offending coach, and with regard to the slap on the fast break, I would have called the personal.

I just like to see good, skilled basketball.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by scyguy
no T in this situation. I agree with DownTown. Common sense should have a place in this decision. Get up, do your job and remind coach to stay off court. Hey, the coach has treated you with respect the whole game, now return the favor. Be a man and do what is right. Not by rule but by common decency.

Some might say that being a man is doing what is right by giving the T regardless of the situation. He already reminded the coach to stay off the court. How many times should he remind him? Also, common decency would be for the coach to realize that the court is for players and officials. There isn't any part of a coaches job during a live ball that is done on the court.

Jeb, in theory you might call the slap but in reality I don't think so. Many of us, myself included, have called a foul on a break or pass only to see that the player would have played through the foul for a layup/dunk or the pass would have got to it's intended target for a wide open shot. Given most circumstances it is better/acceptable in the officiating community to pass on this. If the climate of the game dictates it then you call a foul. It is the way we work basketball. Welcome to the world of basketball officials.

[Edited by tomegun on Dec 17th, 2004 at 11:18 AM]

[Junker]

I understand why you wouldn't want to throw the T, but in my opinion the coach is leaving you little choice. He had been warned about the box and chose to be so far out on the court that it interruped an official from being able to watch play on the court. It's unfortunate that it happened at this point in the game, but the rule is there for a reason. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a tough decision, but I think your hands are tied and you have to call this one. Just my opinion of course.

[scyguy]

Junker, excellent point and you did it in a pleasant way.

[Junker]

Thanks, I try to be pleasant at least once a week, no matter what my students seem to think.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by jebPE
Dan-ref,

My comment regarding somebody getting hurt was a supplement to my contention that the official's job is not to keep the game interesting.

Maybe you'll now tell us what the official's job *is*? I've often wondered just what the hell I was supposed to do out there, maybe you can provide some words of wisdom & guidance.

It occurs to me that when games are called closely and consistently, that players are less likely to play wildly, and their basketball skills become better for it.

Well, first you say it's not the official's job to make the game interesting, then you go on to say a closely called game leads to a better exhibition of basketball by the players...which is another way of saying it makes the game interesting. (Yeah yeah I know you'll tell me it's not about the game getting better it's about the players improving themselves in their overall experience of growth as a student blah blah blah. Bullsh1t to that I say. Player improvement and growth falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaches. I'm just there to make sure the game is played within the spirit of the rules....ooops, seems I let a clue to the first question slip out there.)

Those who've been at it a while understand the nuance involved in advantage/disadvantage, tightening the game up vs letting them play, the human element of players participating in a sporting contest, etc etc. In fact, that is the challenge. Any dope can read & understand the rule book & apply it in a black & white fashion. It takes a special type of dope to do it in a way that makes the game interesting....errrr....allows the players to apply their basketball skills.

No doubt players will get hurt from time to time, but it would seem to me that part of the official's responsibility is to help prevent injuries (which is directly relevant to the original post...suppose the knocked-down ref fell backward and hit his head on the floor...coach being on the floor is not supposed to be part of the game).

The official's duties include the prevention of injury but only as outlined by the rules. After we've made sure players and the court are both properly equipped it's up to the player's conditioning and plain luck to keep all involved safe.

But let's suppose the official did get injured after running into the coach. Explain to me again how a T after the fact prevents this injury?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Maybe you'll now tell us what the official's job *is*? I've often wondered just what the hell I was supposed to do out there, maybe you can provide some words of wisdom & guidance.

Well, first you say it's not the official's job to make the game interesting, then you go on to say a closely called game leads to a better exhibition of basketball by the players...which is another way of saying it makes the game interesting. (Yeah yeah I know you'll tell me it's not about the game getting better it's about the players improving themselves in their overall experience of growth as a student blah blah blah. Bullsh1t to that I say. Player improvement and growth falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaches. I'm just there to make sure the game is played within the spirit of the rules....ooops, seems I let a clue to the first question slip out there.)

Those who've been at it a while understand the nuance involved in advantage/disadvantage, tightening the game up vs letting them play, the human element of players participating in a sporting contest, etc etc. In fact, that is the challenge. Any dope can read & understand the rule book & apply it in a black & white fashion. It takes a special type of dope to do it in a way that makes the game interesting....errrr....allows the players to apply their basketball skills.

The official's duties include the prevention of injury but only as outlined by the rules. After we've made sure players and the court are both properly equipped it's up to the player's conditioning and plain luck to keep all involved safe.

But let's suppose the official did get injured after running into the coach. Explain to me again how a T after the fact prevents this injury?

Dan_ref, excellent points.

And you did it in an unpleasant way too.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Dan_ref, excellent points.

And you did it in an unpleasant way too.

Shove it you crusty old SOB.

And have a Merry Christmas!

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
But let's suppose the official did get injured after running into the coach. Explain to me again how a T after the fact prevents this injury?

Your rhetorical question is easily answered but suffice to say that a T in this sitch could prevent future injury by humbling the coach to adhere to his box. When an official lets this degree of free-wandering continue, that coach will continue to push the rules or flatly ignore them which does result in injury and so the habit goes on unchecked. Then, the next game its another official that gets derailed.

Get it early, THAT would help the coach and your brethren officials.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Robmoz

Your rhetorical question is easily answered but suffice to say that a T in this sitch could prevent future injury by humbling the coach to adhere to his box. When an official lets this degree of free-wandering continue, that coach will continue to push the rules or flatly ignore them which does result in injury and so the habit goes on unchecked. Then, the next game its another official that gets derailed.

Get it early, THAT would help the coach and your brethren officials.

Again bullsh1t I say to that.

Coaches are allowed to get up within the confines of the box/bench.

Sometimes a gym has less than optimal room on the sidelines.

In any event there are times when *I* need to run into the coaches area as a play develops.

If I knock a coach on his @ss as I run by do you think a T will reinforce the idea that he needs to be more careful? Assuming he's that dense do you expect he'll be that much more restrained next time he gets excited during a tight game?

And if I knock him on his @ss while he's legally standing OOB can he T me?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Shove it you crusty old SOB.

Sigh.

It doesn't seem to matter what I do or say today, or how nice I try to be.

Remind to slap Dr. Norman Vincent Peale upside the head next time I see him. He lied to me.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh.

It doesn't seem to matter what I do or say today, or how nice I try to be.

Remind to slap Dr. Norman Vincent Peale upside the head next time I see him. He lied to me.

Oh I'm sorry sweety...please don't be upset. I did give you that lovely Christmas picture! Didn't you like it??

[jebPE]

OK, Dan, I'll bite...
(but I would mention that the least you could do is consider my entire post...including the reponse to Jimgolf in which I said I don't have a problem with discretion and advantage/disadvantage).

I don't presume to tell you what your job is other than to enforce the rules.

In this case were are talking about a blatant technical foul. Not intentional, not flagrant, but blatant, nonetheless.

If I were officiating, I would call the technical.

I wouldn't like it (as apparently both coaches had been respectful throughout the game), but I would think that I would have to do it.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

In any event there are times when *I* need to run into the coaches area as a play develops.

If I knock a coach on his @ss as I run by do you think a T will reinforce the idea that he needs to be more careful? Assuming he's that dense do you expect he'll be that much more restrained next time he gets excited during a tight game?

And if I knock him on his @ss while he's legally standing OOB can he T me?

Don't confuse the original issue with a coach being way out of his prescribed area and the fact that YOU may be the one that enters HIS domain. As an official, you have the responsibility to AVOID the coach or other bench personnel as you run by them -- to the best of your ability.