Key to Part 1

[Rich]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Wow, Mary Struckoff? I am really scared now. Remind me to shiver a little when after I laugh excessively with your comments. I do not care whether JR agrees with you. I have disagreed with him on this issue before you even knew where this site was located. Probably before you got the internet on your computer. Also, it is not like Mary was well respected when she was here. And it is not the case with many of the people in place today. Report away. I am still laughing at your sorry behind.

BTW, Marty Hickman (former NF Basketball Committee Member) was at the front of the room. So were Anthony Holman, Beth Seuer (sp?), and any other Assistant Executive Director I could think of. So go right ahead. Kurt would have to take an issue with every single Officials association that holds meetings. Keep emailing everyone if you like. Not one objected or made an issue out of the comments from the person that runs the entire Official's Department.

Peace

Like Mary Struckoff of the NFHS has any power regarding a state issue anyway.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge

[/B]

JR, they also go out and watch officials. If you prove yourself to be a competent official and use the proper mechanics, that means just as much if not more.

The Power rating is used as one objective gauge to determine playoff assignments. It has been made clearly by those that assign basketball (and who assign the other sports) that is not at all the major consideration. I know people that get playoffs that they feel are great officials and I am sure the power rating is not a factor in what they decide or not decide.
[/B][/QUOTE]Iow, the system does depend on someone(i.e.- IHSA assignors) knowing that the guys that they put out there are actually good officials. There's not some numbers nerd who's never seen the officials sitting at a desk and shuffling papers to figure out who to put on the games.

As long as the system actually works........(knowing that there is always usually politics involved also- no matter what state you are in).....

[JRutledge]

All I am saying is that it is an "OPEN BOOK TEST." When I was in college there were some teachers that gave open book tests. They never meant you could not get in a study group and come up with the answers or what your position you took on the essay. There are no rules that suggest that is wrong or considered cheating. It would be one thing if you showed me a rule in my state or any other state that contradicted that, but there is not one.

Peace

[stripes]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Did it ever occur to any of the geniuses out there also that there are states where Part 1 is given out as an official test(either open or closed book), and the results of that test may determine their rating or eligibility for playoff games? What might be OK for officials in one state does not necessarily mean that it applies to ALL states.

Don't you get the correct answers when you get your test returned anyway? Or if you just get a mark, you can ask and then get the answers?

Sure that occurred to me. I can read.

I get corrected answers, in January. We like to be able to discuss and check our answers. Certainly not a crime here.

You act like everyone that asks/supplies answers to the test has some ulterior/overt motive to cheat and that simply isn't the case. Many of us use the answers in very constructive ways. I used to post the test answers for my class of 1st and 2nd year officials so they could check their answers and i told them that if they just copied them and turned in their test for a good score, they were only cheating themselves, but they still had to choose.

Let us be big boys/girls and choose for ourselves without the condescention.

[Edited by stripes on Oct 28th, 2004 at 07:12 PM]

[tjones1]

Originally posted by stripes

Sure that occurred to me. I can read.

I get corrected answers, in January. We like to be able to discuss and check our answers. Certainly not a crime here.

You act like everyone that asks/supplies answers to the test has some ulterior/overt motive to cheat and that simply isn't the case. Many of us use the answers in very constructive ways. I used to post the test answers for my class of 1st and 2nd year officials so they could check their answers and i told them that if they just copied them and turned in their test for a good score, they were only cheating themselves, but they still had to choose.

Let us be big boys/girls and choose for ourselves without the condescention.

[Edited by stripes on Oct 28th, 2004 at 07:12 PM]

My point from the very beginning!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by stripes
[/B]

You act like everyone that asks/supplies answers to the test has some ulterior/overt motive to cheat and that simply isn't the case.

Let us be big boys/girls and choose for ourselves without the condescention.

[/B][/QUOTE]No, I'm saying that there is a potential in this practise for having some officials somewhere in the country cheat on their exams. If someone hasn't written it yet, and they now have to pass the exam to be certified in their state, then having all of the answers sent to them well before they have to write the exam means that they can take the easy road, if they want to, and cheat. And how exactly then would you then know that no one else has't any ulterior/overt motives and wouldn't cheat? The potential is now there, isn't it?

Btw, all I've given out so far in this thread is my view on this subject. Don't give me that "condescending" crap just because my view doesn't agree with yours. I don't think that I've written anywhere that I don't respect the right of you or anyone else to have their own view on this subject, whether I agree with that view or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
No, I'm saying that there is a potential in this practise for having some officials somewhere in the country cheat on their exams. If someone hasn't written it yet, and they now have to pass the exam to be certified in their state, then having all of the answers sent to them well before they have to write the exam means that they can take the easy road, if they want to, and cheat. And how exactly then would you then know that no one else has't any ulterior/overt motives and wouldn't cheat? The potential is now there, isn't it?

Well that is not my problem. That is their problem. Not all states use the tests the same way. If a state wants to create a process, they need to be aware that in this day and age, officials can and will share information. If they want to protect the results, then change the process.

Peace

[tjones1]

Attended my rules meeting last night. Verbally stated at the meeting, #1 thing Kurt looks for is mechanics. Look, if you abuse the key you are going to pay for it on the floor period, thus bad rating, no post-season. One of the main points in the test is seeing the rules changes or the additions. If you just fill out the sheet and abuse the key you aren't going to know the changes and it will show.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by tjones1
Attended my rules meeting last night. Verbally stated at the meeting, #1 thing Kurt looks for is mechanics. Look, if you abuse the key you are going to pay for it on the floor period, thus bad rating, no post-season. One of the main points in the test is seeing the rules changes or the additions. If you just fill out the sheet and abuse the key you aren't going to know the changes and it will show.

Watch out. You are about to have someone tell you that you lied and what Kurt feels. But that same person has probably never met Kurt or talked to any of the Rules Interpreters that runs these meetings to even know what Kurt thinks.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Rich F. -

Mary Struckhoff used to be an Assistant Executive Director for the IHSA. She has now moved to the NFHS to handle Officials. She may not have authority to punish (suspend, terminate or limit playoff availability), but she has a resource to direct comments about cheating. Mary can also blow a call in to her colleagues at the IHSA and inquire about the perceived impropriety.

When I see someone cheat on the field, I penalize them and notify the responsible authority. Jeff Rutledge just committed aviolation of the NFHS and IHSA ethics codes and he was reported accordingly. If you find this petty, that sounds like an issue of your integrity, not mine.

It is called atest for a reason. In Illinois it is used for promotion and playoff eligibility. A few points on the scores will make a difference!

[gordon30307]

WCB

It's an open book test. Whether the answers are posted for all to see or not it's a "piece of cake" to get the correct answers if you really want them. If the powers that be really wanted an objective test they could hold it as closed book test as part of a Rules Interpretation Meeting. If it were done this way the weeping and knashing of teeth would be unbearable. Don't you think they know that the answers are shared? IMHO test scores (except for the Certified Test) should have no bearing on post season assignments.

[stripes]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

No, I'm saying that there is a potential in this practise for having some officials somewhere in the country cheat on their exams. If someone hasn't written it yet, and they now have to pass the exam to be certified in their state, then having all of the answers sent to them well before they have to write the exam means that they can take the easy road, if they want to, and cheat. And how exactly then would you then know that no one else has't any ulterior/overt motives and wouldn't cheat? The potential is now there, isn't it?

Btw, all I've given out so far in this thread is my view on this subject. Don't give me that "condescending" crap just because my view doesn't agree with yours. I don't think that I've written anywhere that I don't respect the right of you or anyone else to have their own view on this subject, whether I agree with that view or not. [/B]

I have no problem with anyone putiing out their opinion, but I really think you do condescend toward those who don't share your viewpoint. It is not about respecting rights...it about an attitude.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by stripes

Btw, all I've given out so far in this thread is my view on this subject. Don't give me that "condescending" crap just because my view doesn't agree with yours. I don't think that I've written anywhere that I don't respect the right of you or anyone else to have their own view on this subject, whether I agree with that view or not. [/B]

I have no problem with anyone putiing out their opinion, but I really think you do condescend toward those who don't share your viewpoint. It is not about respecting rights...it about an attitude. [/B][/QUOTE]Um, how about the guy that wrote in this thread:-"Did it ever occur to any of the geniuses out there..." Or maybe the guy that told people who disagreed with him- "For all of you, too bad....".

Wonder who that was?

Think that maybe "condescension" might be in the eye of the beholder, Stripes?

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by gordon30307
WCB

It's an open book test. Whether the answers are posted for all to see or not it's a "piece of cake" to get the correct answers if you really want them. If the powers that be really wanted an objective test they could hold it as closed book test as part of a Rules Interpretation Meeting. If it were done this way the weeping and knashing of teeth would be unbearable. Don't you think they know that the answers are shared? IMHO test scores (except for the Certified Test) should have no bearing on post season assignments.

The last line says it all. In Illinois, where you live and work, this test does matter. There are other states that count the test towards promotion, as well. Whether the answers are easy to get or not has no bearing. It is still cheating.

Want a more real example...just because you have a friend that can get you heroin, doesn't make it any less illegal. Are we supposed to wring our hads because others don't have such connections? Officials are supposed to uphold the rules. Passing out the answers while the test is still open is wrong. This is not a grey area. Enforce the rules or don't take the check!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Rich F. -

Mary Struckhoff used to be an Assistant Executive Director for the IHSA. She has now moved to the NFHS to handle Officials. She may not have authority to punish (suspend, terminate or limit playoff availability), but she has a resource to direct comments about cheating. Mary can also blow a call in to her colleagues at the IHSA and inquire about the perceived impropriety.

When Mary was here she knew of the same procedure. You make it sound like this is something new. Officials association was going over the test on her watch. She did the same as they are doing now. The only thing she changed was the Part 2 process and promotion process. It was officials that used to cheat on a test that was taken at a specific cite and was being administered totally against the rules. Now we have the same system we had when she was in Illinois.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
When I see someone cheat on the field, I penalize them and notify the responsible authority. Jeff Rutledge just committed aviolation of the NFHS and IHSA ethics codes and he was reported accordingly. If you find this petty, that sounds like an issue of your integrity, not mine.

What specific code did I violate?

I can see you never went to school. It was not unusual for a teacher to give an "open book test." When they gave it, it was common for fellow students to go over the test with each other. Not only was this known, it was encouraged. If the teacher wanted to limit the knowledge students gave to each other, they do not give a take home exam.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
It is called atest for a reason. In Illinois it is used for promotion and playoff eligibility. A few points on the scores will make a difference!

Show me a by-law that tells anyone that sharing the answers with officials across the country is illegal or against the rules? Do not talk about what you think, show me a by law. Show me a rule that states when I have passed the test that I cannot share my answers? You cannot suggest some general, suggestive code is violated and not state a specific code that is violated. Am I not supposed to share information with other officials based on your point of view? Yes this is a test, but it is an "open book test." They give the test to everyone in the state. They put no rules that suggest we even have to use only the rulebook or casebook to find our answers.

The first statement in the Code of Ethics in the IHSA Handbook states:

"An Official must devote time, thought and study to the rules of the game and the mechanics necessary to carry out these rules so that one may render effective and creditable service in a fair an unbalanced manner."

Funny I do not see anything about the test or the procedure about the test. They do not state what you can or cannot do at all in an "open book test." If they did not want interaction, they would make rules that suggest it. Even on page 29 when they talk about IHSA By-Laws that apply to officials, they say nothing about the test. They do talk about honoring contracts and attendance at Rules Meetings, not one mention of any test procedures.

It does say in the Code of Conduct on the second line of codes:

"An Official must work with fellow officials and the state association in the spirit of harmony and cooperation in spite of differences of opinion that may arise during debate of points or rules at issue."

You have violated this 10 times over on this site and many other places. You have attacked me as an umpire and told me I was not going to get a playoff game during the baseball season. You told me that I was not on the level as an official that you were. You have told me and many others that they have not worked the level you have, so they basically do not have the right to an opinion. You seemed to have violated this "code" almost every day you are here. Should I report you?

You have the right to report me thru the Special Report Form if you feel like it. But that would mean you would have to put your name down and the rest of us could now see how much of what you say is even true. Then we would see if you violated this code of conduct:

"An Official must resist temptation and outside pressure to use one's position as an official to benefit oneself. Under all circumstances, officials must avoid promoting the special interest of any person or group other than the athletes we serve."

Now is your UMPS talk and putting down organizations that I belong or groups in the area part of your code that you follow?

You have to read all of the Codes of Conduct, not just the ones you seem to disagree with.

Peace