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Old Tue Jan 23, 2001, 09:50pm
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As usual, a situation in a game tonight brought up.....

Another Question:

What's the procedure for calling a foul flagrant? Give me the step by step in order, please, so I can memorize it.

Also how do I get back to that old thread from a few weeks ago about calling flagrant fouls, and what is and what ain't?

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Old Tue Jan 23, 2001, 11:38pm
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Hi,

Luckily, never to have had to call one, I'd say:

At the spot, if not multiple players involved.

Give the ejection signal. Something like the MLB umps use, but under total control.


When reporting, being calm:

"Flagrant foul, blue, #34. The player is ejected. Please record the quarter and time remaining on the scoresheet."

Give the ejection signal.



Other input welcome!

..Mike
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 03:16am
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Question

I might suggest informing the coach as well. If too hot of a situation, maybe non-calling official can inform.

In which case, I would also add:

Make sure your partner knows what you have before you go to the table, so she/he can prepare the administering of the next play. Come together and talk through what you have, what's next, FTs or not, etc.

It always helps me in these situations that are often emotional and can invite a mistake.
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 08:50am
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I would politely disagree.

I wouldn't give a baseball heave-ho signal. For one, I don't think it is in the book and two that might really blow the coach up.

You simply report your foul as flagrant (Intentional or T), then simply tell the book the player is disqualified from further competition. This way is "softer", and makes it sound more like the kid got his 5th. You have to inform the player and coach they are DQ'd. Then move on to administer the penalty.

I have found it is all in the wording, the less confrontational you are, the better it goes. Hopefully it was an obvious reason, and the coach usually will be more upset at the player than you.
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 09:02am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Watson
I would politely disagree.

I wouldn't give a baseball heave-ho signal. For one, I don't think it is in the book and two that might really blow the coach up.

You simply report your foul as flagrant (Intentional or T), then simply tell the book the player is disqualified from further competition. This way is "softer", and makes it sound more like the kid got his 5th. You have to inform the player and coach they are DQ'd. Then move on to administer the penalty.

I have found it is all in the wording, the less confrontational you are, the better it goes. Hopefully it was an obvious reason, and the coach usually will be more upset at the player than you.
Perhaps. I've seen it been given a few times, and no problems arose. As for not being in the book, big deal. Who uses the proper "basket counts" signal? Noone up here. On a weird foul, I report to the table, for the coaches, what actually happened. Par example, it's not uncommon for me to bring my knee up and slap it. Signals a block. Especially if it happens in the corner, where the coach can't see. But, the coach then learns what the player did - he didn't move his feet fast enough, and allowed the player the baseline.

It all depends on what level of game you're reffing, how you fit in with your association, and other things as well.

..Mike
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 11:00am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Watson
I would politely disagree.

I wouldn't give a baseball heave-ho signal. For one, I don't think it is in the book and two that might really blow the coach up.
I agree completely with you, Brian--I would approach it the same way. The "heave-ho" signal may not cause much reaction sometimes, but it has more potential to intensify a situation (and the crowd) and does nothing helpful, really. Calmly reporting the flagrant to the table as just that, then informing the table and coach that the player is disqualified, presents a matter-of-fact approach that has a better chance of keeping tempers from getting worse and will more swiftly get the game moving again. The fans may not even realize the player got ejected (especially if it wasn't an obvious fight situation) if he just sits on the bench, until they discover later he hasn't returned to the game yet. That's fine with me.

And Mike, I understand what you mean about "not-in-the-book" signals visually conveying what actually happened, but the whole idea of having uniform signals is to allow us as a group to look more professional and precise in what we're doing, on top of communicating more clearly. And that, in the long run, can only help with our perceived credibility. Personally, I cringe at some of the unorthodox signals (and mechanics) that I see on the court, and in general I don't believe it reflects well on us as officials.
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 11:13am
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When a player gets his 5th foul and is disqualified, we have always been taught to first inform the coach, then the player - and not the other way around. The player does not actually become bench personnel until the coach is notified (right?).

What about in this instance? Do you need to tell the coach that the player is ejected before he/she becomes bench personnel? If so, that might make telling the coach a little higher priority.

As far as the signals go, I think Todd hit it on the head. We need to be uniform as a group - in both rule enforcement and presentation. For instance, how many refs have you seen call the "over-the-back" foul which does NOT exist. All this does is invite the coach to argue for it in his/her next game.
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker
The fans may not even realize the player got ejected (especially if it wasn't an obvious fight situation) if he just sits on the bench, until they discover later he hasn't returned to the game yet. That's fine with me.

Todd, this was exactly the situation, but I'm a little uncertain about calling flagrant. I did it, because this girl had gotten out of control and this foul was rough and quite vicious. It wasn't quite violent, though. I'm feeling incorrect about it, since I was criticized for calling a flagrant last year, that was rough and vicious, "but not fighting." This time as I stood there, I couldn't think of any way to sit the girl down, except to call the foul flagrant.

So here are some more questions: What other ways are there to sit a player down? Could you describe some fouls that are flagrant, but may not be obvious to the spectators? Is fighting the only flagrant foul?

I really want to get this straight in my head since I have signed up to be observed by the commissioner (God-Jesus-Howard) in a couple weeks, and I want to be prepared for any eventuality -- as much as possible.
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally posted by JugglingReferee





. Who uses the proper "basket counts" signal? Noone up here. ..Mike [/B]
What signal do you use? The book shows bringing your arm straight down in front of you, I have never seen any other signal for a made basket.


Rainmaker - You need to use your judgement on how "flagrant" (no pun intended) the foul is. If you think they tried to hurt that person, boot them. If it was just a hard foul, just make it intentional. If you thought it was vicous, then you made the right call. That player can sit a game or two and think about it ( I assume ejected players have to sit out in your state).
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 11:55am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
I really want to get this straight in my head since I have signed up to be observed by the commissioner (God-Jesus-Howard) in a couple weeks, and I want to be prepared for any eventuality -- as much as possible.
Juulie - you can never be prepared for Howard. Hope that doesn't scare you, hee hee.

Seriously - remember what I told you previously about him not liking three second calls if the play is "outside" - in fact, you might mention to him after the game that you let some go because you didn't want to "disrupt the flow of the game" and you always want to use the "advantage/disadvantage" theory - do that and he'll probably give you a medal.

BTW - one of the posts above in this thread says that on a flagrant, tell the scorer to note the disqualification in the scorebook. There is a difference between a disqualification and an ejection. In some states, there are further penalties for ejections. I would recommend you instruct the scorer to note an ejection, just in case there is further review.
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 12:00pm
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rainmaker,

To eject a player for a flagrant, I think you want to be sure the action was of a particularly severe nature. If the girl had gotten "out of control," that suggests a number of contact situations that you should be calling fouls on. How to sit her down? Keep calling those fouls (and keep watching her off-ball to catch those), and the coach will likely have to sit her down to prevent fouling out. If a foul involved significant contact, but was not really purposefully trying to hurt someone, possibly call an intentional foul (either because it was on purpose or involved excessive contact). Then talk to the girl off to the side to tell her to knock it off if she wants to keep playing. Most flagrant contact fouls are going to be obvious to the fans, unless it's an elbow thrown in a crowd but with clear intent (i.e., not part of protecting the ball after getting a rebound). Other flagrant fouls could be technicals : trash talking, particularly vulgar language directed at an opponent or at an official, a hard shove during a dead ball (e.g., after a made basket) where the player falls or slams into the wall, etc. These aren't all necessarily automatic flagrants, but could be depending on their severity. For example, a "mild" shove after a made basket could/should be a normal technical, while the hard shove that sends someone flying could be flagrant. A flagrant does not have to be fighting only. But . . . judgment calls, yes!

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Jan 24th, 2001 at 11:02 AM]
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 01:06pm
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I think part of any differences is that I am from Ontario. Ontario is the only Canadian province that uses Federation rules. Others use either FIBA or modified NC2A rules. My understanding is that some other provinces have changed recently, but have changed from FIBA to NC2A, or similar, but we are still the only ones using Fed.

At Ontario meetings, Ontario changes are discussed. They're mostly mechanical. In other words, no rules are changed. (It's not like we consider the division line part of the frontcourt.)

Brian:

The basket counts signal I see is the referee putting his arm up in the air, palm out, then bending at the wrist, and bringing the arm down in a sweeping motion. If you have a better wy to convey this signal using text, please, do so. However, I just did this signal. I think it looks, quite honestly, faggy. Signals used up here are: making a fist at eye level, in front on the body, and bringing the fist down to your waist. Or making a fist at eye level, 6 inches outside your elbow, then sweep the arm down across your body to rib level.

Same w/ the illegal use signal... I see an open hand striking the wrist area of the arm with an open hand. I think that looks weak. I use fists.

The held ball signal... I interpret the book as being extending your arms out in front of you, not bent, with your thumbs up. Then, sweep your arms up over your head, rotating at the shoulder. I've never seen it done that way. I usually just come in with two thumbs up, shoulder width apart, 6 inches above my head.


Todd:

It is possible to give the "heave-ho" signal calmly. Just stand in the FRA, do whatever you must say, and simply point in a diagonal fashion across your body. As for a coach going ballstic over a flagrant. I'm sorry, but I've gotta wonder about a coach if he reacts violently when one of his players does something to warrant a flagrant foul.

I totally know where you're coming from in terms of unorthodox signals and being in sync as a group. I'm a product of the provincial development system here in Ontario, and have done some evaluations myself. Up here, where the conditions warrant, it's ok to give another signal. Like I mentioned, play opposite the bench, so players are in the key, obscurring the coach's views. A2 drives baseline, and B1 lifts his knee and leg up to block A2 from driving the baseline. A2 falls OOB. Gotta call this one.

In the FRA, "Blue, 12, block." Giving the blocking signal as you say "block", then repeat the action the defender did. I'm not saying you need to do this every foul. But if the coach is off the bench, asking you what he did, this will/should clearly show him what happened. His player wasn't moving his feet fast enough.
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Old Wed Jan 24, 2001, 01:30pm
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I need to look at the picture again.

I was always taught after a foul you use the fist, straight down (or across the body), you use the limp, wrist "wave" on buzzer beaters.

Maybe I have been wrong all these years.
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Old Sun Jan 28, 2001, 06:20pm
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Rainmaker,
I would pay close attention to what Brian and Todd have said re: your original post-I think they are right on the mark!!!
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