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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 22, 2004, 04:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by smoref
that 3 seconds starts over when a shot goes up.
This might not be quite right, smoref.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 22, 2004, 04:43pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Coaches want communication. They only get more agitated if they're ignored.
This is exactly right, and it took me literally years to learn this lesson. (I'm not the brightest bulb. . .)

Nobody says you have to talk to the coach. But I would try to find something to say that acknowledges you understand his/her concern and it's something that you can discuss with your partner.

I would not say that your partner blew the call, or that it's too late to fix or anything like that. I would take Juulie's approach, which is non-committal. "I hear you, Coach. We'll talk about it at the half."
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 22, 2004, 04:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by lrpalmer3
Experienced coaches know how to expose an official's weaknesses.
This is also very true. An experienced coach is often looking for a way to work an inexperienced official. If you tell him/her that your partner did not, in fact, know the relevant rule, then you've just handed your partner over to that coach on a silver platter -- "Don't you know that rule, either?!?!"

That'll get ugly fast!
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 03:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust


If your partner got it wrong and everyone (except perhaps him) knows it, there's no reason to cover it up when asked. Your partner put you in that position by not knowing the rules. It's not like judgement where we should back up our partner.

I'd answer the coach, "Yes, you're right. I can't change his call, well discuss it at half-time".

Oh,my. That's called "hanging your partner out to dry" imo. I would never, ever say that to a coach. As soon as you say that, your partner just lost all of his credibility for the rest of that game, and maybe even longer in that coach's eyes. I might, under some circumstances, admit to a coach that I might have missed a call, but I'm never going to tell a coach that one of my partners blew one. I'll leave that up to my partner.
If your partner blows something this obvious and you don't acknowledge the coach and admit that the mistake was made but that you will try to rectify it at the half, then you have 'hung your crew, including yourself, out to dry'. There is a difference between selling your partner out and admitting such an obvious mistake. Personally, I might go to my partner on the spot and tell him to change the ruling, if I knew him at all especially if he was a younger guy trying to learn. I would do it in the best possible manner, letting him know it was perfectly alright, just a simple mistake.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 05:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust


If your partner got it wrong and everyone (except perhaps him) knows it, there's no reason to cover it up when asked. Your partner put you in that position by not knowing the rules. It's not like judgement where we should back up our partner.

I'd answer the coach, "Yes, you're right. I can't change his call, well discuss it at half-time".

Oh,my. That's called "hanging your partner out to dry" imo. I would never, ever say that to a coach. As soon as you say that, your partner just lost all of his credibility for the rest of that game, and maybe even longer in that coach's eyes. I might, under some circumstances, admit to a coach that I might have missed a call, but I'm never going to tell a coach that one of my partners blew one. I'll leave that up to my partner.
For some reason, I never saw the responses in this thread until now.

It's my opinion that my partner hung himself out to dry by not knowing a basic rule that even the mom waiting outside in the car knows.

Like I said, I would never offer this, only if the coach asked about it. To do anything else would be a disservice to the team and would be dishonest. We're out there for the kids 1st. We set a very important example. Our integrety and honesty is of highest importantance and the kids need to see people in authoritative positions demonstrating these traits.

Today's society is full of a bunch of finger pointers and putting blame on someone else or denying culpability. I try to not be one of them. As a crew we make mistakes together. When I make a mistake and am questioned, I admit it. When my partner makes one and I'm asked, I admit it.

I'm not talking about anything that involves judgement...just absolutes. If it involves whether a player did or didn't step on the line or why he did/didn't call a foul, I'll either confirm my partner's call, if I saw it and know why he called it, or refer them to my partner if I don't.

It's not supposed to be us against them. I think the coaches trust and respect us more if we appear to be working with them and not appear unapproachable by brushing them off all the time. This includes addmitting our mistakes.

Also, this was a JH game. The point is learning and improvement...for both the teams and often the officals. It's OK to show them we're working on it.

Make the case even more extreme. Partner blows whistle and calls a backcourt violation during a free throw or calls traveling on a player who doesn't have the ball (and is not near it), or calls a player control foul on the player dribbling the ball in the backcourt when every other player is 30 feet away.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 05:54pm
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I'm for fixing it.

When it is something that is so obviously mis-applied, I'd lean toward getting together.

Even if that means going to the arrow for an inadvertent whistle, if team A was not in possesion when the whistle blew. The crew keeps credibility by copping to the error.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 08:20pm
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Let's compound the situation. Suppose your partner continues to make erroneous 3-second calls thinking the count continues during shooting/rebounding sequence. How do you handle it? Personally, I don't think you can wait until halftime.

And how would you handle the following real-life scenario. I was doing 3-man crew in men's league game and C makes 3-second call on player standing at foul line. He eroneously thought that was part of the lane and was ADAMANT about being correct. I had done some JV games with this official and he was a pretty decent official so I was surprised by his lack of knowledge in this particular case. How do you handle this situation without selling your partner down the river? I can tell you we couldn't wait until halftime to correct.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 08:28pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TravelinMan


And how would you handle the following real-life scenario. I was doing 3-man crew in men's league game and C makes 3-second call on player standing at foul line. He eroneously thought that was part of the lane and was ADAMANT about being correct. I had done some JV games with this official and he was a pretty decent official so I was surprised by his lack of knowledge in this particular case. How do you handle this situation without selling your partner down the river? I can tell you we couldn't wait until halftime to correct.
How would I handle this? Depends.

If I was L I become new T. If I was T I become new L.

In any case I jog down court.

Might ask him about it during a timeout, but right now I'm jogging down court.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 08:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TravelinMan
... He eroneously thought that was part of the lane and was ADAMANT about being correct. I had done some JV games with this official and he was a pretty decent official so I was surprised by his lack of knowledge in this particular case. How do you handle this situation without selling your partner down the river? I can tell you we couldn't wait until halftime to correct.
At a dead ball:

  • "Partner? If you stop making that call for the rest of the half, until we can review the book, I'll buy the first and second beverage."

    mick
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      #25 (permalink)  
    Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 08:35pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by devdog69

    If your partner blows something this obvious and you don't acknowledge the coach and admit that the mistake was made but that you will try to rectify it at the half, then you have 'hung your crew, including yourself, out to dry'. There is a difference between selling your partner out and admitting such an obvious mistake. Personally, I might go to my partner on the spot and tell him to change the ruling, if I knew him at all especially if he was a younger guy trying to learn. I would do it in the best possible manner, letting him know it was perfectly alright, just a simple mistake.
    It is not up to yo uto point out your partner's mistakes to the coaches. You are a team, and by you selling out your partner, you're eliminating the amount of trust that was between you. If I see my partner blow a call, I won't tell the coach that, but if the coach questions it to me I will say, "Coach I hear you, but I didn't make the call, as it was out of my primary, you could call a time out if you'd like a word with my partner or wait until half time to discuss it." Usually the coach doesn't want to waste a timeout and forget's about it by the time half rolls around.

    Never ever sell out your partner, and always support his/her calls. We're not out to over-rule eachother. If someone makes a mistake on a call, leave it be, unless it happens to deal with the arrow, or who touched the ball last when it goes out of bounds. Judgement calls like fouls and violations cannot be debated or overruled by the non-calling official. From the perspective of a younger official, by over-ruling my call, you're sending a message, the message that i'm incompetent. I never change a call, the first signal I use is the one i stick with. If I blow it, I blow it, but no one is ever going to get me to change my mind. The proper situation to bring this up would be in the post game, and just go over it. Don't make an fool of your partner by overruling his call infront of a gym full of people.

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      #26 (permalink)  
    Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 08:42pm
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    Re: I'm for fixing it.

    Quote:
    Originally posted by blindzebra
    When it is something that is so obviously mis-applied, I'd lean toward getting together.

    Even if that means going to the arrow for an inadvertent whistle, if team A was not in possesion when the whistle blew. The crew keeps credibility by copping to the error.
    Agreed...fixing it the first option.

    However, if the whistle is blown while the ball is in the air for one of the shots, there is no fix that is fully equitable if the shot misses. The only solution is to go to the arrow. Someone gets the ball. If it was the team that was going to get the rebound, they lose the arrow out of the deal. If it was the team not likely to get the rebound, the would get a possession they didn't deserve at the cost of the arrow.

    Going to your partner to fix it, however, is just the same as telling the coach he got it wrong. It says the same thing by action instead of words.


    I had a partner, this summer, that granted the defense a timeout while the ball was live. He knew better but just reflexively blew the whistle without verifying who was requesting it and if they were permitted to do so.

    The coach of the team with the ball was puzzled both by the call and why they still got the timeout anyway. He wanted an explanation. Not giving him an answer when he had a legitimate beef would have probably ended up in a T. The only thing that could be said was that it was indeed a mistake but now that it's been made, they get the timeout anyway since it is now a dead ball. I was there in front of him and everyone knew it was wrong. He was asking me. I might was well be the one to answer him rather than calling my partner over and looking like I'm ducking the question.
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      #27 (permalink)  
    Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 08:49pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by mick
    Quote:
    Originally posted by TravelinMan
    ... He eroneously thought that was part of the lane and was ADAMANT about being correct. I had done some JV games with this official and he was a pretty decent official so I was surprised by his lack of knowledge in this particular case. How do you handle this situation without selling your partner down the river? I can tell you we couldn't wait until halftime to correct.
    At a dead ball:

  • "Partner? If you stop making that call for the rest of the half, until we can review the book, I'll buy the first and second beverage."

    mick
  • Mick, I DEFINITELY like your answer. If my partner(s) did that for me, what with all the mistakes I've made over the years, I'd be feelin no pain! LOL

    Dan, problem was player at foul line (6'10" and former D2 player) is looking at me all perplexed wondering why he is being called for 3 seconds. We needed to make sure the same call wasn't amde again because they were running plays off the high post.
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      #28 (permalink)  
    Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 08:52pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by TravelinMan
    Quote:
    Originally posted by mick
    Quote:
    Originally posted by TravelinMan
    ... He eroneously thought that was part of the lane and was ADAMANT about being correct. I had done some JV games with this official and he was a pretty decent official so I was surprised by his lack of knowledge in this particular case. How do you handle this situation without selling your partner down the river? I can tell you we couldn't wait until halftime to correct.
    At a dead ball:

  • "Partner? If you stop making that call for the rest of the half, until we can review the book, I'll buy the first and second beverage."

    mick
  • Mick, I DEFINITELY like your answer. If my partner(s) did that for me, what with all the mistakes I've made over the years, I'd be feelin no pain! LOL

    Dan, problem was player at foul line (6'10" and former D2 player) is looking at me all perplexed wondering why he is being called for 3 seconds. We needed to make sure the same call wasn't amde again because they were running plays off the high post.
    My answer stands, even if the player at the foul line used to be Michael Jordan.
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      #29 (permalink)  
    Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 09:04pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Dan_ref
    Quote:
    Originally posted by TravelinMan
    Quote:
    Originally posted by mick
    Quote:
    Originally posted by TravelinMan
    ... He eroneously thought that was part of the lane and was ADAMANT about being correct. I had done some JV games with this official and he was a pretty decent official so I was surprised by his lack of knowledge in this particular case. How do you handle this situation without selling your partner down the river? I can tell you we couldn't wait until halftime to correct.
    At a dead ball:

  • "Partner? If you stop making that call for the rest of the half, until we can review the book, I'll buy the first and second beverage."

    mick
  • Michael who?

    Mick, I DEFINITELY like your answer. If my partner(s) did that for me, what with all the mistakes I've made over the years, I'd be feelin no pain! LOL

    Dan, problem was player at foul line (6'10" and former D2 player) is looking at me all perplexed wondering why he is being called for 3 seconds. We needed to make sure the same call wasn't amde again because they were running plays off the high post.
    My answer stands, even if the player at the foul line used to be Michael Jordan.
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      #30 (permalink)  
    Old Wed Jul 28, 2004, 09:05pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by TravelinMan
    Quote:
    Originally posted by Dan_ref
    Quote:
    Originally posted by TravelinMan
    Quote:
    Originally posted by mick
    Quote:
    Originally posted by TravelinMan
    ... He eroneously thought that was part of the lane and was ADAMANT about being correct. I had done some JV games with this official and he was a pretty decent official so I was surprised by his lack of knowledge in this particular case. How do you handle this situation without selling your partner down the river? I can tell you we couldn't wait until halftime to correct.
    At a dead ball:

  • "Partner? If you stop making that call for the rest of the half, until we can review the book, I'll buy the first and second beverage."

    mick
  • Michael who?

    Mick, I DEFINITELY like your answer. If my partner(s) did that for me, what with all the mistakes I've made over the years, I'd be feelin no pain! LOL

    Dan, problem was player at foul line (6'10" and former D2 player) is looking at me all perplexed wondering why he is being called for 3 seconds. We needed to make sure the same call wasn't amde again because they were running plays off the high post.
    My answer stands, even if the player at the foul line used to be Michael Jordan.
    ooops. Michael who?
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