inadvertant shistle

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Luckily I have not experienced a whistling coach. What I would probably do would depend on reaction of the players (almost like an inadvertant horn going during play). If the defense or offence stops playing in some way I may blow it dead and resume with a throw in from the closest spot out of bounds. I would not allow subs unless it were for an injured player.


If a player travelled because he thought the whistle went - blow it dead and give it back to his/her team.

[/B]

What rule are you using to back up either of these proposed actions? [/B][/QUOTE]

Whatever rule allows us to make a decision on something not specifically covered in the rules. (argh, don't have my rule books with me)

What would you do if there was an in-advertant horn (scorekeeper accidentally hits it or hits it after you've handed the ball to someone to throw in) and the offence or defence (or both) stop playing?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cingram

What rule are you using to back up either of these proposed actions? [/B]

Whatever rule allows us to make a decision on something not specifically covered in the rules. (argh, don't have my rule books with me)

What would you do if there was an in-advertant horn (scorekeeper accidentally hits it or hits it after you've handed the ball to someone to throw in) and the offence or defence (or both) stop playing?
[/B][/QUOTE]If you have an inadvertant horn, you simply follow the rule covering it. In this case, case book play 2.11.3 tells you what procedure to follow for inadvertant horns. What you can't do is make up your own rules. In the above plays, the rules do allow you to T up the coach if you feel that his whistling constituted an unsporting act and thus gave his team an illegal advantage. The rules do not allow you to negate violations however.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If you have an inadvertant horn, you simply follow the rule covering it. In this case, case book play 2.11.3 tells you what procedure to follow for inadvertant horns. What you can't do is make up your own rules. In the above plays, the rules do allow you to T up the coach if you feel that his whistling constituted an unsporting act and thus gave his team an illegal advantage. The rules do not allow you to negate violations however. [/B]

I admit I'm not as verbose as some of you on this board. I will look up that case book play when I get home. I need to read up on the rules and case book plays more (and keep a copy at work too).

By the way (just out of curiousity I'm not trying to pick a fight): which rule allows an official to give the ball back to black when the ball went off them last (they were fouled by white at the same time which the official decides not to call).

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by cingram
By the way (just out of curiousity I'm not trying to pick a fight): which rule allows an official to give the ball back to black when the ball went off them last (they were fouled by white at the same time which the official decides not to call).

Were you at my aau game this past Sunday?

Towards end of game, happened in front of A's bench, Coach A gets up "It was out on him! It was out on him!!" hesitates, smiles and half whispers "you saved me a foul there, didn't you?"

I smiled back & told him I didn't know what he was talking about.

Anyway, I think it's in rule 2 somewhere, under officials duties, being light on your feet.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Whatever rule allows us to make a decision on something not specifically covered in the rules. (argh, don't have my rule books with me)

What would you do if there was an in-advertant horn (scorekeeper accidentally hits it or hits it after you've handed the ball to someone to throw in) and the offence or defence (or both) stop playing?
[/B]

If you have an inadvertant horn, you simply follow the rule covering it. In this case, case book play 2.11.3 tells you what procedure to follow for inadvertant horns. What you can't do is make up your own rules. In the above plays, the rules do allow you to T up the coach if you feel that his whistling constituted an unsporting act and thus gave his team an illegal advantage. The rules do not allow you to negate violations however. [/B][/QUOTE]

Good grief, leave him alone. I am willing to bet that you would do the same thing because your common sense would tell you too.

[ChuckElias]

Christina, since you don't have your books handy, here's the case JR's talking about:

SCORER'S SIGNAL
2.11.3 SITUATION: When may the scorer signal? RULING: If the scorer desires to call attention to a player who is illegally in the game, he/she may signal the official when the ball is in control of that player's team. If it is for a substitution, the scorer may signal when the ball next becomes dead and the clock is stopped. If it is for conferring with an official, he/she may signal when the ball is dead. If the scorer signals while the ball is live, the official should ignore the signal if a scoring play is in progress. Otherwise, the official may stop play to determine the reason for the scorer's signal.

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Christina, since you don't have your books handy, here's the case JR's talking about:

SCORER'S SIGNAL
2.11.3 SITUATION: When may the scorer signal? RULING: If the scorer desires to call attention to a player who is illegally in the game, he/she may signal the official when the ball is in control of that player's team. If it is for a substitution, the scorer may signal when the ball next becomes dead and the clock is stopped. If it is for conferring with an official, he/she may signal when the ball is dead. If the scorer signals while the ball is live, the official should ignore the signal if a scoring play is in progress. Otherwise, the official may stop play to determine the reason for the scorer's signal.

Thanks Chuck.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

6 players on the floor...you can't wipe the basket. That is a T only when it is recognized by an official, not when it happened. That, as you said, it quite different than an unsportsmanlike act that happens at a specific instant and is penalized (except for ONE case) when it occurs.

This is supported by 10.1.6

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by dhodges007

If you have an inadvertant horn, you simply follow the rule covering it. In this case, case book play 2.11.3 tells you what procedure to follow for inadvertant horns. What you can't do is make up your own rules. In the above plays, the rules do allow you to T up the coach if you feel that his whistling constituted an unsporting act and thus gave his team an illegal advantage. The rules do not allow you to negate violations however. [/B]

Good grief, leave him alone. I am willing to bet that you would do the same thing because your common sense would tell you too. [/B][/QUOTE]Nope, I wouldn't do the same thing. Say that you did cancel a travelling violation because a coach whistled, and you then gave the ball back OOB to the team that committed that violation. After the game, the coach that whistled hands in a written complaint to your association about that exact same call. Hodgy, you have to answer that complaint. How do you do that now? Do you say that there's no rule against it, but I didn't think it was "fair"? Then you hear the obvious "Well if you thought it wasn't fair, then why didn't you just give the coach a T? You coulda maybe justified that by the rule book". Iow, how does your association explain your act?

If a player's has a breakaway, and an opponent behind him then hollers at him, stamps his feet, whistles, etc., are you gonna stop the play if the player misses the layup and then give his team the ball back OOB? Or are you gonna T up the opponent instead? Or just let the play go because there's no rule against it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Nope, I wouldn't do the same thing. Say that you did cancel a travelling violation because a coach whistled, and you then gave the ball back OOB to the team that committed that violation. After the game, the coach that whistled hands in a written complaint to your association about that exact same call. Hodgy, you have to answer that complaint. How do you do that now? Do you say that there's no rule against it, but I didn't think it was "fair"? Then you hear the obvious "Well if you thought it wasn't fair, then why didn't you just give the coach a T? You coulda maybe justified that by the rule book". Iow, how does your association explain your act?

If a player's has a breakaway, and an opponent behind him then hollers at him, stamps his feet, whistles, etc., are you gonna stop the play if the player misses the layup and then give his team the ball back OOB? Or are you gonna T up the opponent instead? Or just let the play go because there's no rule against it.

Soumnds that mimic officials' whistles are quite different than stomping feet. Hollaring and stomping feet are never a reason to stop. A whistle is. If the coach's whistle resembles the officials whistle so closely that players stop I think it is a special situation that needs to be handled within in the spirit of the rules. Players are taught to play to the sound of a whistle and are not expected to analyze the source of the whistle or the reason why it was blown. There is no rule governing this...either for or against. It comes under 2-3. The referee has to do what is right.

If I, as an offical, even thought for a second that it could have been my partner, I will assume that the players also thought so and will declare that it killed the play. Tough luck for team A, their coach should avoid signals that are confusing. (Not all that different than being granted a time out for yelling "five out" where if the ref hears it as timeout and grants it, too bad).

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Soumnds that mimic officials' whistles are quite different than stomping feet. Hollaring and stomping feet are never a reason to stop. A whistle is. If the coach's whistle resembles the officials whistle so closely that players stop I think it is a special situation that needs to be handled within in the spirit of the rules. Players are taught to play to the sound of a whistle and are not expected to analyze the source of the whistle or the reason why it was blown. There is no rule governing this...either for or against. It comes under 2-3. The referee has to do what is right.

If I, as an offical, even thought for a second that it could have been my partner, I will assume that the players also thought so and will declare that it killed the play. Tough luck for team A, their coach should avoid signals that are confusing. (Not all that different than being granted a time out for yelling "five out" where if the ref hears it as timeout and grants it, too bad).

Okay, just for the record, folks, now everyone pay attention here. I agree with Camron and disagree with Jurassic. Did everyone catch that? I'm disagreeing with Jurassic. He's just a big dope that doesn't git it, and can't referee worth beans, anyway.

And Camron (who I've watched and worked with several times over the years, so I'm not being obsequious here) is a very good ref who gets the big games, and handles them well. So obviously, Camron is da guy, and I'm agreeing with him.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[/B]

Soumnds that mimic officials' whistles are quite different than stomping feet. Hollaring and stomping feet are never a reason to stop. A whistle is. If the coach's whistle resembles the officials whistle so closely that players stop I think it is a special situation that needs to be handled within in the spirit of the rules. Players are taught to play to the sound of a whistle and are not expected to analyze the source of the whistle or the reason why it was blown. There is no rule governing this...either for or against. It comes under 2-3. The referee has to do what is right.

[/B][/QUOTE]I agree with your idea of maybe not letting the coach get away with that whistle in that particular situation, especially if you think that the coach is gaining an advantage out of it. I don't agree that you haveta go to 2-3 to handle it though. You've already got a handy, serviceable rule in place that you can easily adapt to this situation- i.e. a technical foul under R10-4-1. Serves the same purpose anyway. You're giving the offended team 2 shots and the ball back, and the coach is getting a warning issued to him in the form of the direct technical foul that he is charged with. You can also cite casebook play 10.4.1SitC (the one where you withold your whistle for a T on a coach while an opposing player is on a breakaway) as being fairly close to the actual sitch, and use that to justify your call also.

Next question, Camron. If an opponent is behind a player with the ball on a breakaway and uses the same type of whistle as the coach, do you call it? And, if you do, what do you call it?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

Okay, just for the record, folks, now everyone pay attention here. I agree with Camron and disagree with Jurassic. Did everyone catch that? I'm disagreeing with Jurassic. He's just a big dope that doesn't git it, and can't referee worth beans, anyway.

[/B][/QUOTE]Okay for you. So much for carrying my unborn child. You're off the list now. That cuts it down to Mick, Dan, Chuck or Tony now.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker


Okay, just for the record, folks, now everyone pay attention here. I agree with Camron and disagree with Jurassic. Did everyone catch that? I'm disagreeing with Jurassic. He's just a big dope that doesn't git it, and can't referee worth beans, anyway.

And Camron (who I've watched and worked with several times over the years, so I'm not being obsequious here) is a very good ref who gets the big games, and handles them well. So obviously, Camron is da guy, and I'm agreeing with him.

OK, if we're voting I cast my vote for that big dope, the grumpy old b@stard. I've yet to hear a coach's whistle that sounded like a Fox40, players at/above a certain level should be at least that aware.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

OK, if we're voting I cast my vote for that big dope, the grumpy old b@stard. I've yet to hear a coach's whistle that sounded like a Fox40, players at/above a certain level should be at least that aware.

Hmmm...is it too late to change my vote now?