block/charge

[oc]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I agree with Daryl. This is a blocking foul on B1. Remember, A1's arms go where ever A1 goes. I really would like to see A1 try to attempt such a manuever in the air with his arm. I do not believe the laws of physics will allow A1 to effect such a manuever.

I am not going to argue with your interpretation. I made this post to get opinions. But I don't understand how you could think this is impossible. It's not that difficult-if fact it is pretty easy. Please explain.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by oc

I am not going to argue with your interpretation. I made this post to get opinions. But I don't understand how you could think this is impossible. It's not that difficult-if fact it is pretty easy. Please explain.

I think what MTD is saying is that since the offensive player is in the air, he cannot push the defender. He has to be on the ground to do so. This is because there is no resistance to the force being applied. In essence he would be pushing away from the defender, not pushing the defender. I think the end result for you is the same: you got hit by the offensive player. It's up to the ref to determine if this contact is a foul or not, or incidental to you committing a block.

Of course, when I took physics, they said personal computers were impossible.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jimgolf

I think what MTD is saying is that since the offensive player is in the air, he cannot push the defender. He has to be on the ground to do so. This is because there is no resistance to the force being applied. In essence he would be pushing away from the defender, not pushing the defender...

Aint so at all, as an obvious example ask yourself who would be "pushed away" if A1 were shaq and B1 were, say, Reggie Miller. Actually Mark brought up Newton's laws of motion. His (Newton's not Mark's) second law applies when considering the force involved.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Jimgolf

I think what MTD is saying is that since the offensive player is in the air, he cannot push the defender. He has to be on the ground to do so. This is because there is no resistance to the force being applied. In essence he would be pushing away from the defender, not pushing the defender. I think the end result for you is the same: you got hit by the offensive player. It's up to the ref to determine if this contact is a foul or not, or incidental to you committing a block.

Of course, when I took physics, they said personal computers were impossible.

What MTD is doing is making an excuse for calling it a block and trying to get out of it.

Just because the offense can not push the defender away from them, does not make this a block. If A1 creates space for their shot by pushing HIMSELF away from B1 it is a PC foul.

MTD has this whole cone of verticality deal to protect A1 from committing any PC fouls.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
[/B]

MTD has this whole cone of verticality deal to protect A1 from committing any PC fouls.

[/B][/QUOTE]Arms are only within the protected "cone of verticality" if they are straight up. If they aren't straight up, then the the arms are in the "cone of horizontality", which is a restricted zone. That's why pushing off with the arm is a foul on the pusher, and not on the pushee.

Hey, it's all starting to make sense now. Drool. Slobber.

[RookieDude]

Ok, most of us agree that a push in mid-air is a PC foul, even if the defender gets there late.
How about if A1 jumps into the air with a straight arm and dosen't move his arm at all, ala' The Heisman trophy, and then crashes into B1 who has got there late?

Does this fit MTD's response about arms having to go with the body?
A1 didn't "push" off...he stayed in the same pose throughout the jump. This is really going to look bad calling it a block, because the hand/arm of A1 is in a straight arm position...but MTD may have something with this one, because the hand/arm did follow A1 with no "pushing" going on...it was a straight arm...not a push.
Just stirring the pot a little.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Ok, most of us agree that a push in mid-air is a PC foul, even if the defender gets there late.
How about if A1 jumps into the air with a straight arm and dosen't move his arm at all, ala' The Heisman trophy, and then crashes into B1 who has got there late?

Does this fit MTD's response about arms having to go with the body?
A1 didn't "push" off...he stayed in the same pose throughout the jump. This is really going to look bad calling it a block, because the hand/arm of A1 is in a straight arm position...but MTD may have something with this one, because the hand/arm did follow A1 with no "pushing" going on...it was a straight arm...not a push.
Just stirring the pot a little.

Well, let's see if we can stir us up a rule to cover it:

How about Rule 4-24-6? -- "It is not legal to extend the arms fully or partially in a position other than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs".

Or maybe Rule 4-24-7? "It is NOT legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent from attacking the ball during a dribble OR WHEN THROWING FOR GOAL".

Think that oughta take care of it?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 28th, 2004 at 06:41 PM]

[RookieDude]

Sorry MTD...
I think that about covers it.